Building Capacity for Uncertainty: Rachel Pekarsky's Journey Through Egg Freezing

Rachel: you

Julie Pernikoff: Okay. Hi everyone and welcome. This is Into Motherhood and I'm Julie Pernikoff. And today we have as our guest Rachel Prikarski. Hi, Rachel. Welcome. ⁓ my gosh, this is great. And we're like, we were just like schmoozing, so this is also really fun. so okay, I'm gonna read your bio that you it was beautiful that you wrote, and we'll get into it. We wanted to add one more thing. Rachel, please feel free to take it away.

Rachel: Thanks so much. I just wanted to say I I genuinely do have a huge fear of needles. And I think even if you don't have a fear of needles, like this is a lot of needles. ⁓ so I just also wanted to say that I did have a therapy session to ⁓ work on that fear of needles. ⁓ granted I was still scared going into it, but we did what was very helpful was to write, we wrote a script together of something to keep in mind. ⁓ Thank you very much.

Julie Pernikoff: Rachel Bakarski is a speech-language pathologist, collector of passport stamps, and firm believer that life rarely follows the timeline you imagined. Rachel has first-hand experience with egg freezing and joins us to talk candidly about the medical, emotional, and social sides of the journey, from making the decision to freeze her eggs to navigating dating and uncertainty along the way. Today she joins us to discuss the highs, lows, and unexpected lessons she's learned about fertility.

Rachel: Before injecting myself, what to think while I was injecting myself, and what did I say to myself and remind myself after injecting myself. I keep saying the word injecting. But ⁓ yeah, and it was really powerful and really helpful just because

Julie Pernikoff: dating, resilience, and building a future family that may still feel a long way off. Rachel, that was really beautiful. Thank you for putting that together. You are Yeah. That's so powerful.

Rachel: Thank you. Hope your audience knows that you're a trained vocalist. I didn't forget. I lived through it. When you are putting needles in yourself all the time, that that's pain. That's really painful. It's it could be torturous, right? And pain without a purpose is torture. But when you add purpose to it and you remind yourself of why you're doing it, because you value family, because life can be uncertain, but it's a safe process when you when you just have a quick reminder.

Julie Pernikoff: ⁓ my god, I forgot about that. ⁓ my gosh, it's hysterical. I did do voiceover lessons at one point. So ⁓ Rachel, it's a really great to have you for anyone, for everyone listening. Rachel and I used to be roommates and I don't know if you remember this, but we met on a bus a really long time ago. Have we discussed this? You do remember. Yes, we are on the way to a friend's wedding and we met.

Rachel: So, thank you. I actually do. Oh, I'm waiting for wedding! Layla! Wow. Of your goal in mind and you have that purpose in mind, it takes away a little bit of that torture. I also just want to say that the organizations can also help ⁓ pair you up with someone in a a community nearby that can actually do the injections for you. ⁓ yeah, it's really incredible. I I know that there are things that still need to be worked on, but at the same time, how incredible is that that you can

Julie Pernikoff: Like we didn't we didn't know each other yet, but we had we have a we had a friend in common. yeah, I remember you were like standing in the aisle and I was standing in the we were talking, and then ⁓ later on we became roommates in the heights. So

Rachel: That so cute. I remember you at that wedding. Call and find someone in your area that can help you with the injections or talk to you before and have it support. ⁓ but the script was really helpful.

Julie Pernikoff: So, Rachel, first of all, welcome. It's great to have you. this is great. ⁓ talk talk to us, give us a little background. I know you. I want everyone listening to know you. Tell us about you professionally.

Rachel: ⁓ yes, ⁓ the organizations also said you can use MICER money for this process as well. I'm obviously not a RUV and talk to you a RUV, but the organizations are obviously run with a lot of rabbinical guidance. ⁓ and using that MICER really did take a lot of some of that like anxiety off of things during the process. But yeah, pain w without purpose, you're just torturing yourself. And I it's actually really crazy at the end of the process. Yeah, I'm a speech therapist, speech language pathologist, and I teach people the importance of communication so they can connect their ideas ⁓ to others around them and connect to people, ⁓ which is the beautiful thing about podcasts also, right? Just that skill of just being able to open up your ideas and thoughts in a language-based area so that you can connect with others and learn more about the world. So that's my day to day. The injections were actually some of the easiest parts, which I really was blown away from because I was not even entertaining the thought of doing egg freezing because of how scared I am of needles. I run. I see a needle, I'm like, that's it, I'm out. Physically I'm not gonna be in the doctor's chair anymore. so yeah, I I found that fascinating. And I do work with a lot of kids, so that'll come into play about the idea of egg freezing as well. ⁓ But yeah, that's what I do day to day.

Julie Pernikoff: Wonderful. Thank you, thank you. And where do you work? What was the biggest challenge?

Rachel: I work both in public school and a clinic, so both private and public. And they're both very different, very beloved to me. Yeah. And then on the side, just like to travel, I like photography, like cooking. ⁓ And it's fun for me. I hope people think I'm having fun too, because I am. But I hope also don't think that I'm having too much fun. I think the biggest challenge was thinking. No, it was the emotional piece of thinking that I am in control. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: You don't have to say anything.

Rachel: and and being shown that I'm human. I'm a human and even the doctors, you know, have to do a lot of work behind the scenes with all these calculations and ⁓ it's it's fascinating. that she can't settle down and have kids. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: Rachel, that was quotable quote. Like we could end the podcast here. That was perfect. It's that's such a great point also.

Rachel: It's like such a big fear. It's like, ⁓ she's having so much fun that like, why would she even want to get married? And it's like, no, I just don't want to be sad all day and like have this take over my life. Your life's not on hold during this time in our lives. ⁓ That's a really tough balance of like doing things that give you energy and give you hope. And at the same time, not getting like so independent and so stuck.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Rachel: in that space. I don't know if you also went through that, yeah, definitely, know, people always are like, ⁓ where are you going next? Were you traveling next? And I'm just like, I hope they don't think that like my goal in life is to go to every single country or to be having, you know, too much fun. Because it doesn't always feel fun. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: Mm. It's it's so funny you say that. I'm j I'm just that's why I'm like, wow, quote unquotes, because I remember when I was single, like a really long, but like a really long time ago, not in like recent years, I remember somebody saying something about like someone traveling and kind of making it sound like, ⁓ they travel so much, like do they even want to settle down? I remember thinking like that wasn't so fair, but I also even almost was like, Wait, is is that like a thing? But like you can travel and still want to get married. It's so so

Rachel: video. Yeah. There's space for both.

Julie Pernikoff: There's space for both. So tell like tell us about that. Tell us about being a single woman, you know, experiencing life and then also from the lens of slowly preparing for motherhood.

Rachel: Yeah. ⁓ ⁓ It's really tough and motherhood alone can feel really uncertain. There's so much that's just not in our control. And then on top of that, to have that extra layer of uncertainty of like, the fear starts to get to you. And when you don't know the outcome of something, right? You can either lead through faith or lead through fear. And sometimes those fluctuate. And sometimes your fears start to take over and ideas start creeping into your head like, am I marriageable? Like, am I gonna be a good mom? Like, I don't know if this is worth it anymore. And that's just your fear talking and taking over in that moment. And it's so real and it's so human. And you just, can't live through fear your whole life. And, you know, definitely when we get to the topic of egg freezing, egg freezing also, you feel like you're spending so much money and that things are going to be more certain. And you just keep learning that nothing in life is certain. And we're just here building capacity for uncertainty in whatever stage we're in, married, single, you know, going through an illness, just life comes at you and You have to take life day by day and your fears do get to you and your emotions get to you. And it's just taking things day by day.

Julie Pernikoff: That that line that you said, building capacity for uncertainty. That's

Rachel: I think that's like the whole point of life, right? Just recognizing that as smart as we are and as creative as Hashem made us, like, and we became such good problem solvers and we know so much, it gives us this illusion of we're in control and we can do anything. And I feel like every generation, there's like something else that's like, ⁓ here's what everyone's learning. We're all just learning little by little bit by bit that we're really ultimately not in control. So you really should not.

Julie Pernikoff: Not in control. Yeah. I scratch. That was amazing. Thank you, Rachel, for sharing that in every way. Talk to us about egg freezing. Talk to us about how one decides to do that. Talk to us about your experience. And we'll go down like, you know, we'll ha ask you very technical questions, but just to start us off, how does one decide to do that?

Rachel: thank you for ⁓ having me on here. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: Pleasure.

Rachel: So it's not like one dramatic moment where you just wake up and you're like, I'm going to freeze my eggs. It's a series of just birthdays, conversations with friends, ⁓ tests. It's a whole buildup of life. So it definitely wasn't a dramatic moment. ⁓ and I genuinely would not have even had this on my radar if not for literally dozens of my brave friends who all went through this stage together and were so courageous and they did the research and they gave me a lot of information and a lot of hope and strength and one of you guys are gonna be so lucky to marry one of them one day ⁓ because they're amazing and I wouldn't be here today without them. ⁓ And I think that's something people don't know about this process is that it's something on ⁓ a lot if not all single women's minds and it's starting like younger and younger. But yeah, I'm in awe of my friends and I couldn't have done this without them.

Julie Pernikoff: That's amazing. So tell us, I guess, like technically then, because you're saying, you know, it doesn't it doesn't happen in one grand gesture, which makes sense. Like that's honestly that makes sense. Like a nice, like logical, stable decision sometimes will happen in waves and in cycles. how does it technically begin then once you jump in?

Rachel: So it's not a snap decision. If you want it to be a snap decision, that's impossible. The wait line for egg freezing can be months. So even if it's just on the brink of your mind, just like have an appointment with a reproductive endocrinologist like handy, just because it, just to get to that first appointment of even exploring the idea can be months, especially if you want one of the best doctors or a Schomer-Shabas doctor. ⁓ or a doctor who's just very skilled in what they do. ⁓ So that alone is just like, if you wanted to even do it that week, you couldn't. It's impossible. And then once you already get to that first stage, there's a simple blood test and they'll have a sit down consultation with you just to explain statistics and what you're getting yourself into and to kind of ease you into the idea and make an informed decision because it's a huge decision. On so many levels, it's a huge decision. Financially, emotionally, physically, it's a huge decision. And you're not tied down to having to do it. ⁓ You can just really just have the consultation, have the blood test and just explore your options. I would just start there and then take things day by day.

Julie Pernikoff: Okay. Okay. That's really that's really good to know. The medical system is very tough in like every angle. Wow.

Rachel: Yeah. It's very tough in Israel and America it's different in between New York and New Jersey it's different. ⁓ And the whole process is extremely technical. I can get more into it if you want but. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: Really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So okay, so so can you break it down for us a little bit, like step by step? So we we started with the consult, ⁓ and then still you have to make a decision even based on that.

Rachel: Yeah, I think that there are like two huge misconceptions about egg freezing that everyone should know about. One of them is that egg freezing does not mean that you're hoping to become a single mother on your own. It's really just another insurance policy and kind of maintaining that balance between like hope and uncertainty. But it doesn't mean that you're going to be a single mom. with these eggs unless that's something you choose. But I think a lot of people's minds go to that, like, ⁓ egg freezing, like, that's it. And I think the second misconception is that everybody knows that women are born with a certain amount of eggs that get used up naturally as time goes on. So people think that you are using up your eggs earlier when you're freezing your eggs, and that is so not true. It's actually really cool. Your body every month has a certain amount. First of all, I'm not a medical professional. So please talk to a doctor. But just to simply explain it to the best of my knowledge as a speech-language pathologist in a totally almost severe field. Thank you. Thank you for the crap. I'm experienced. I'm experienced. But once again, not a doctor, but to my knowledge.

Julie Pernikoff: And somebody that went through it. You're and you're Yeah. You're experienced. Yes.

Rachel: being experienced in this. ⁓ Every month, your body has a bunch of follicles and your body naturally selects one of those follicles to turn into an egg that can turn into a child. ⁓ What the egg freezing process does is that you're synthetically injecting yourself with hormones multiple times a day. As someone who's scared of needles, that was a really big fear of mine, injecting myself. multiple times a day. I literally am scared of beetles and I can talk about that later, but you're injecting yourself with hormones to turn those other follicles that would just disappear naturally into multiple eggs. So you're turning those follicles into a crazy amount of potential that wouldn't have existed before. So you're not prematurely using up eggs.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm, mm-hmm.

Rachel: by egg freezing and then you won't have eggs later. Every month you have those follicles. Instead of growing one egg, you're growing multiple eggs at once, depending on how your body responds to the medicine. ⁓ So yeah, I think those are like two big misconceptions. And then you really have to time the whole process around things that are important to you. ⁓ You could bloat a little bit during the process. So.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: You might want to do it more in the winter when you're wearing cozy sweaters and not as tight clothes. You might have a friend's wedding coming up and you might not be able to dance. ⁓ If you rely on the gym for mental health, you can't work out for about a month so intensely. You can take a brisk walk. But for a month, as a single person who goes to the gym often, that can be really crushing to hear. Obviously, it's not the same as like nine months of pregnancy where you're giving up your body for nine months, but you are giving up your body. ⁓ for your children. ⁓ So yeah, it's like not premature. I don't want to say premature. I'm sure you remember like going through that. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Chills again. That's No, that's but that's but that's that's like this is listed in my questions for later. But that's that's Monsieur Snefish. That Monsieur Snefish. That is sacrifice. It's it's 100%. Are you kidding? Also, I just learned so much. There's so much. There's so much like I I wanna learn, I wanna learn about this, but still like I'm blown away about things that

Rachel: Thank you. It's really validating. You know

Julie Pernikoff: that are just new that like it's a different angle of the experience that I haven't heard about yet. And I'm hoping that listeners can gain from it too. So okay, so just to continue with the steps though, ⁓ talk to us about ⁓ like the the medication that you said, the medicine and the multiple needles a day. What is that for? What does that look like? Why is that happening?

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, so it's crazy because you're paying so much money for more certainty and there's just more uncertainty. Like the doctors don't know how your body is going to react to all the medicines. It's really like a $10,000 guessing game at the end of the day, which is wild to think about because my mind is a single person. And I'm sure yours also even as a married person is like $10,000. That's like three future Shatles and a or a car or a year's worth of tuition or your mind just keeps going. But kids are expensive, know? ⁓ This year is nevish. This year is nevish. So yeah, so it's a guessing game. So you have to go for monitoring not every day, but almost every day during the process. The process, the shots of you self-injecting at night is like eight to 12 days approximately.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. Mr. Snapesh, right from the start.

Rachel: And then there's trigger shots after that and retrieval, is procedure, we are under anesthesia to retrieve the eggs. It's a lot. The medications have to be refrigerated. The medications alone on top of, you know, the about $10,000 for the process. The medication on the side is another $5,000 to $6,000. So really it's like...

Julie Pernikoff: No way. It's separate.

Rachel: I'm not joking. Yeah, I those are separate and every clinic is different. By the way, if you're looking into different clinics, make sure that the anesthesia is included, the egg freezing is included. There are a lot of questions that are important to ask. Please feel free to reach out. Simi are one of the organizations to know what to look for. The monitoring alone, like the every other day blood work and ultrasounds, that can be another $1,000 if your insurance doesn't cover it. Co-pays.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: You're going, you're paying a copay every other day, so you have a high copay. That's another added expense. It really starts to add up in ways you don't expect. But there is a lot of support in the Jewish community to really help out with that. Sorry, what were you gonna say?

Julie Pernikoff: Where is No, please. I'm just I'm like, wait, I w hold on one second. How how but I'm still I'm still stuck on like I want I want the ladder. I want the steps and then I want to talk more about the community though. But tell me more about the steps. So at night there's shots and then so are there sh multiple shots a day? There's one specifically at night. Like what what's the schedule? How does that or is it different for every person?

Rachel: It's so much. It's all other worlds. So it's different for every person. Like there's a WhatsApp group where people talk about the egg freezing process and their medications and swapping meds, which obviously do under doctor's guidance, don't just start taking medicine that you don't know anything about. That's the thing. You become really a medical professional overnight. I never have to give shots in speech. And even my friends that are in the medical field don't give these types of shots.

Julie Pernikoff: Okay, okay. Ever for anything.

Rachel: And it was confusing for them as well going through the process if they were going through egg freezing or IVF, which is a very similar process. ⁓ So yeah, you sometimes you're scrolling through the WhatsApp groups and you're like, why don't I have that medicine? What does that medicine do? Why don't I have it? Is there something wrong with me? Like, is there something amazing with me? Like, yeah, every and every doctor has a different protocol and different medications that they're using. But a lot of the medications do have to be refrigerated and timed.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah, ⁓

Rachel: and they can't be too cold and get frozen and they can't be too warm and the enzymes or whatever they might be get killed. So they really have to be in a controlled environment at a very specific time every night. So it also takes up a lot of time. It's emotional, physical, financial, and it takes over your schedule completely. You also before work have to go for a monitoring because they want

Julie Pernikoff: And so.

Rachel: the blood work ready in time at like 6 a.m. to give you new instructions potentially in a few hours. So everything is very specific in times and out of your control. And sometimes you might need to pick up more medications. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: Like they'll just call you out of the blue and be like, ⁓ you need you need to do this instead like in the middle of the day.

Rachel: Yeah. And to them, they're doing the nurses are you're usually assigned like your specific nurse because there are so many instructions. And at any point you think you're going to mess this up because I was like, I don't have any medical training. And here I am in charge of this really expensive process. And you feel like you can like overcook your eggs or under cook your eggs. But it gets really hard to not let it take over your life too much. But it's very natural that that would happen because there's so much going on that you don't know. It's all encompassing. It really takes over every area of your life, every modality. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: Right. It's all encompassing, truly. Wow. It really sounds like it. Again, Sarah Snapfish. Tell tell me tell me about like l longevity. Like you're saying it's a month. Is ⁓ how's the process go time wise? Like how long is this is a series ⁓ what's the right word? A cycle?

Rachel: So yeah, I guess the cycles. So the stims are the shots, the shots are eight to 12 days, typically. And then you have a trigger shot and the trigger shot has to be done at an exact time at an exact moment in time to make sure it lines up with your appointment ⁓ for the retrieval to go under anesthesia. They set everyone up very specifically at the clinics. ⁓ For anyone that knows me, I'm usually asleep by like 10, 30, 11, I need my beauty rest. But ⁓ my trigger shot was 1 a.m. on a Shabbos. And I was like, what if I sleep through my alarm? Like, 1 a.m. That's a wild time to be medicating yourself and you can't pre-mix the shots. And it was Shabbos and then you have to ask a lot of Shilohs like, ⁓ can I make myself bleed if I bleed with the shots?

Julie Pernikoff: Rachel, that's crazy.

Rachel: Do you pre-open the alcohol swabs? ⁓ How much can you prepare in advance? What's allowed, what's not allowed? Because during the process, you feel like you're sick. You feel like there's something really wrong with you, even though you're doing something so proactive and so brave. ⁓ But you kind of think to yourself at a point, how did I get to this stage in life that I'm doing this solo, that I'm doing this at all?

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

Rachel: But really this can happen to anyone at any age at any time. But no, like I said, like your fears get to you and start to take over and creep in. What was I talking about? The shots at 1 a.m.?

Julie Pernikoff: There's so many there's so many wonderful little spots there for more conversation. But let yes, let's continue with what we were saying. The ⁓ the shots at one a.m. We were talking about the shots at one a.m. because ⁓ we're talking about timing, like how long everything takes. And then you were saying like things are even specifically timed out within each slot, specifically now the trigger shot.

Rachel: You wanna take a trigger shot? You guys take a trigger shot? Yeah, and then yeah, and you're going under anesthesia, Sue, then as a single person, like you don't have a husband that's going to pick you up from the procedure. You're not allowed to drive for 24 hours. So like, who do you ask? You ask a friend, you ask a family member, do you ask a stranger? You can't Typically, I don't know if there are like, signs for that. ⁓ goodness.

Julie Pernikoff: You can't Uber? Hold on, you froze for a sec. Wait. There you are. Okay, wait. I hear you. It's okay. We'll see you in a second. You look good frozen no matter what. It's fine. Okay. Wait, is my internet? Okay, yes, go on. ⁓ I don't even know. You can't take an Uber. That's what you're saying. Why can't you take an Uber?

Rachel: Where did it pause? ⁓ I don't know, but my clinic didn't let me take an Uber. Maybe you can sign away for that. Some retrievals are on Chavez, so you might need to get a hotel room nearby and there are organizations to help out with that as well. There's just really a lot that goes into it. The hagyem could really fall out nearby. Anyway, so you go for the retrieval, you're under anesthesia and you're alone. Even during IVF, during that process, that part when you're in that hospital bed for it's a 10 minute procedure. It's really thank God not long, but they want everything timed and for you to be there on time. So you're going to be there for like an hour and a half, two hours total, but the procedure is 10 minutes. And you can't eat for a long time before you have to fast. So the organization is bring kosher food for when you wake up, so you have something to snack on. It's really, really thoughtful. But you're alone. And the cool thing about

Julie Pernikoff: Wow.

Rachel: being from in this process is that the organizations really would prefer if you had a mashkiha in their operating room with you during the process, so just to make sure that everything's being labeled properly and sealed and that it's yours. So they actually have a hachshir sticker that they sign off on with their signature. So even though you're feeling really alone, you're not alone. It's very cool. Like you have to get clearance from your clinic and you have someone with you. They just quickly say hi and introduce themselves. They're really not supposed to be part of the process. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: And they're they're volunteers, I'm guessing.

Rachel: other volunteers. They usually live really far away. Some of them are like in the middle preparing for Pesach and they're like running out to come for this like one procedure two hours away for you. as much as there's things that go not wrong but things that could be said during the process that maybe aren't the most comfortable at the same time I am also very grateful for the support.

Julie Pernikoff: Special. Wow.

Rachel: and that was just really cool to just like have someone in the room with you and just know someone's nearby.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. 'Cause does that happen? 'Cause I know that we've we've said and you're saying also now that there's similarities to the IBF process. D does that happen also in the IBF process that a mashkicha would be there? Like in general, is that something that in the firm world they do that with egg retrievals?

Rachel: Yeah, so basically egg freezing is like step one of the IVF process and it just gets stopped when your eggs are literally frozen in a freezer. For IVF, the eggs don't get frozen, they move on to other stages and steps like being implanted. So they actually need a lot more mashkiha work and supervision along the ways exactly. I was trying to think of like the English term for that.

Julie Pernikoff: Got it. Like supervision basically. Yeah. I know I'm also much kiha I I would say supervision. I think that's the right word.

Rachel: There's a more supervision. Yeah, no, that was excellent. There's a lot more supervision involved with married people and a lot of those steps, the people aren't necessarily involved in, like the couple's not necessarily involved in it sounds like, ⁓ but parts of the steps are done without the couple, but need to have supervision to make sure, you know, the right sperm is being implanted with the right eggs. because there can be mix-ups in that really not so frequently anymore, but it's nice to have that extra security.

Julie Pernikoff: It's nice that our community is so is so attentive to that also. ⁓

Rachel: Yeah, well, I mean, we're that's another thing. We are a culture that focuses on family. Everything is family. So I think it's only natural that there are so many organizations dealing with this, because obviously there's a huge need if there is at least three huge organizations working with this on top of I already know two new organizations specifically for single females that are up and coming.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: There's really a need for this. And it's not talked enough about, but it's also becoming more accessible now.

Julie Pernikoff: Well, it's interesting because I feel like there's oftentimes an issue with visibility within the community with single women and single men, but like definitely single women, I would say. so this sounds like a huge improvement in that. Like this is very much ⁓

Rachel: It's huge. It's huge. Like a lot of the organizations, I think even five years ago, when a lot of, you know, my older friends were already talking about it, ⁓ really didn't have the structure set up for this. And they also didn't give financial assistance a few years ago. Now, more and more, there's, you know, some financial assistance available. There's a lot of guidance counselors available. ⁓ So yeah, it's really nice to see the community growing together in this.

Julie Pernikoff: Wow, that's amazing. ⁓ what happens at the end of the process then? And and how does storage work after the retrieval? Is that the end of the process or is there more?

Rachel: Thank you. That's a really great question. It really depends how your body responds to the medicines and to the whole process. So everyone's individual in that sense. ⁓ Some clinics offer free freezer storage for the first year. And then a lot of the Jewish organizations ⁓ have a lot of insight and deals with companies that specialize in egg freezing and These organizations have done all the research for you for the most part, which is incredible because even making a decision of which phone to buy next can be really complicated, let alone, you know, something as sensitive as, you know, your future family in a freezer right now. So it's really nice that they've really done a lot the letter work and have a lot of advice to do that. So the...

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Rachel: Freezing storage fees are usually $1,500 per year. Some of the organizations, you can get it for three to $400 a year. And then you also have to make a decision if you want to, you know, like a lease, like if you want to do a long-term plan or short-term plans, you want to do 10 years of freezing and then it's a little cheaper or, you know, you're betting on yourself. Like even when I was buying disability insurance for work, you know, God forbid I break a leg or...

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Rachel: I don't know, you know, these little things. ⁓ The first question they asked me when I was getting disability insurance, because unfortunately, the American health care system, having a child is considered a disability. ⁓ Which is really, we really need to reframe that as a country. I'm not this like huge, like raw raw person, but that's, that's a biggie. Wow. In maternity, my gosh. Anyways, off topic, but ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: I know. ⁓ huh. Yeah. Like, should we go into that? Yeah. Like Julie stay Julie, stay with the script. Like Don't just start smoozing with Rachel. Okay, yeah.

Rachel: ⁓ That's the thing, like we're always thinking these are things that are on everyone's minds like married or not married yet ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Like we can all and that's that's also like it's so important to me that this forum is a place for just like women and moving into motherhood and Ritzashem but like also just like we're we're women. We have so many commonalities. There's so much there's so much in common and yes, there's so many differences also, but like dealing with the medical system is a massive issue for a lot of people and there's different angles to it. So it's interest

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, even with egg freezing, it's fascinating. ⁓ My insurance through the Board of Ed is amazing insurance, thank God. And they would cover many rounds of IVF if that was something I would need. ⁓ But they don't cover egg freezing unless you have cancer. So I sometimes also during the process, I'm like, wow, I'm in that sweet spot of like, I don't have cancer. But I don't need IVF. But like,

Julie Pernikoff: Yes it is.

Rachel: Wow, really almost nothing was covered. Yeah. You know, it's hard. And in Israel, it's different. In Israel, there's, you know, a lot going on.

Julie Pernikoff: So interesting. That's what their policy is? Okay, that's okay, so let's let's get into that a little bit. Let's get into that. Yeah. So what's what's the deal in terms of insurance, in terms I mean, that's you're talking about like fifteen thousand dollars that like like you're supposed to just have.

Rachel: Oh, so for, yeah, just little cash that you worked hard on for, yeah. But yeah, when I was buying disability insurance, just so I was remembering now what I was saying, when I was buying disability insurance, their first question was, are you getting pregnant this year? And I was like, wow, I am so single right now. But a year, a lot can happen in a year, especially in the from world. Like, I could be pregnant this year. Like, that would be great. Let's manifest getting pregnant this year. Let's get. Let's get a really great policy. Yes. I was like, I'm getting pregnant this year. They're going to marry. I was like, not yet, but you know, things can happen fast. But I took out a really expensive disability insurance because also for disability for pregnancy, you can't just decide and wake up one day that you want disability insurance and they're just going to cover it. Like they need a few months heads up. So I was like, you know what?

Julie Pernikoff: Did you check yes? Be like, yes.

Rachel: I work really hard and I really think about my kids all the time and I hope that they know like how much I went to bat for them and how much I care about them and how loved they are right now. Even though if they don't exist in front of my face right now, like they're all in here, right? We all know they're all in here and we are all born with potential and they're all there. ⁓ During my first monitoring at the beginning of the process, My doctor is religious and he was like showing me on the monitor, you know, all the little follicles and he's like, those are your eight o'clock. And I was like, you print that? Can you print that little picture? Oh, that's very cute actually. Anyways, yeah, so.

Julie Pernikoff: So special.

Rachel: You're really betting on yourself and I'm really hopeful that this is really going to work out beautifully and that as hard as it is right now and as hard as it's been for many, many years, that this will work out. Right? I have friends that got married in their thirties that have five kids and the age of four, no multiples. Like that's wild. And I also have friends that got married at 19 and this is fertility is still a struggle for them. You really can't predict, like I said, like as much as you think you're in charge, we are so not in charge.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. So so many things. So yeah, absolutely. So ta talk to me a little bit Yes. Tal talk to me a little bit about Halacha in terms of all of this. w where do we stand on and then also like using the eggs or not using like where do we stand on that? How how does that work halachically? And

Rachel: ⁓ Yeah, just an insurance policy. highly recommended insurance policy. Yeah, so as a single person going through egg freezing and not IVF and IVF, like I said, you're going straight into doing something with the eggs. With egg freezing, you have to sign a lot of paperwork about what happens with these eggs. And I called to Rabbi, just, you know, double check because the options are basically like, donate the eggs to a family member. or donate them to research or destroy them. Which is crazy to think that you could spend tens of thousands of dollars and just be like, actually, we are going to blow up the whole operation and just we're going to destroy all of these.

Julie Pernikoff: Well also though, like do do behold though that those are like half like children. Like ha like that's what I'm saying also. Like

Rachel: Yeah, no, I don't think so. Just because I'm not a rabbi, but I can just assume that like your body already is naturally releasing eggs. And that's, you know, not a problem. It's not even something we're in charge of. ⁓ if you just want to be like super safe, yeah, they they they didn't they can't grow past being an egg unless their sperm involves so nothing can really happen with them. I was told that, you know, if the form says that the eggs for research purposes. If they won't be turned into a child, then it's okay to donate them ⁓ to research. I was advised not to give my eggs away to family members. ⁓ I'm sure if my subbies are watching this, they're like, aw, dang. Really wanted those.

Julie Pernikoff: Rachel's family is a lot of fun, everybody, just so you know. ⁓ yeah.

Rachel: I really love them. I'm really blessed. Yeah, so I'm sure they're really bums that I'm not, you know, giving them my petri dish of... of... little pies.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. I yeah, this is all you know what I'm asking that also based on? Because I've seen a lot on social media from like Christian influencers that there's like controversy around IVF. have you seen anything like that? So it then it I I I didn't like dive too deeply into it, but I think that they don't hold of it as much because but

Rachel: without them. Thank

Julie Pernikoff: That's why I'm like hologically where do we stand in terms of the eggs? I think they're talking about though, fertilized, like later on. I don't know. Have you seen anything about this?

Rachel: You're saying that's probably more IVF related than egg freezing. Um, just because people will freeze embryos, which can turn into a child in anyone as long as it's implanted into, you know, a body that can handle growing a baby. But, um, yeah, that's probably more IVF related, but honestly, I'm sure a few years ago is a little more taboo in the from community. Um, and a little maybe more controversial.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: I know there's a lot more, in some ways our community is reactive and in some ways our community is proactive. I think because family is such a central part of our culture, I think we're a little more proactive in this process. Yeah, specifically. I don't know if I can say that about other topics. And there's still a ways to go, but I think it's also a growing field at the same time. think we're all kind of just

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. About this. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel: growing together with this. I definitely think there was controversy about it. I think also the more that our community is insular and there's a lot of genetic stuff that's been coming up a lot more recently because, you know, we inbreed within a religious community and a lot of that happens and then genes come up and then people want a gene select in the future with, you know, an IVF process to kind of eliminate certain genes.

Julie Pernikoff: Right, that's right. That's where things get very

Rachel: Like T-Socks. Like remember, like growing up, they were like, you gotta do Dorya Sharan because we can't have T-Socks. But even like T-Socks was kind of controversial. Then they were just like, just don't get married. Now it's like, no, you can probably get married if this couple works out, but it's gonna be potentially a more difficult process or more medically involved. So I think it's just much more, many more aspects and questions.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm, mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. What what does happen if ⁓ great throw that's a that was a great point also. Thank you for bringing that up. ⁓ what does happen? Hold on, there's something in the background. Not sure what it is.

Rachel: My background or your background?

Julie Pernikoff: Your background. I don't know what okay, it's gone.

Rachel: Lose connection!

Julie Pernikoff: Sounded like Men in Black was was like coming. They're like I don't know if anyone else heard it. Maybe it just me. I don't know. ⁓ what what does happen though? Like if if ⁓ like if someone freezes their eggs, do and then practically like do they need to like that's I guess where you sign it off, but like what do people do in certain cases, like if they get married like a month later, like do or a month later. I'm saying like six months later or something. Like, you know, you don't know what's gonna happen in a year.

Rachel: your child is picked.

Julie Pernikoff: What

Rachel: You just don't know. I feel like I go through this question in my head in a similar way, but a little different. Like, let's say during my egg freezing process, I was dating someone. And first of all, it's very awkward. Like I said, you can't do any intense workouts and a lot of date ideas are like activities to get to know each other so that everything's natural and so fun. And you're like, actually, I just don't know if I can go bowling or do Topgolf or do activate or you're just like, ⁓ wow, now I'm this lame person who can't, who's no fun. I just need to eat dinner and be home by seven o'clock to take a shot because if I miss this shot, I got to start over. ⁓ you can't explain that to someone you don't know. I can't even explain that to someone I do know. It's very awkward.

Julie Pernikoff: You're so fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel: Um, and you don't feel like yourself. You're like a little bloated to like your outfits aren't on point. Why did I bring this up? I brought this up because sometimes during the process you're dating someone and you're like, should I stop the process? Like what if he's the one? And it gets very confusing.

Julie Pernikoff: ⁓ married a month later. Yeah, right.

Rachel: ⁓ It gets really confusing because, you know, like I said, it's not a snap decision for this process to happen. It takes a few weeks or months to kind of get the ball rolling. And then you want to remain hopeful. You also want to have an insurance policy. And it's a hard balance between like, a stateless and be tough on and. and knowing what to do and what makes sense. ⁓ It's a very safe process. It's doable. It's been done before. ⁓ But yeah, something a variable like that, it gets really confusing. Like you just don't know. You just don't know. Like it would be cool. This is controversial to say. I think people have different opinions about this. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Rachel: for me it would be cool if i didn't have to use them um these eggs that i've frozen but there is you know potential in any area in life that you know this could be something i i do really need but like i said everything's uncertain this even when you get married um you don't know like let's say 40 to 50 percent of infertility is male factor in fertility, right? Something I like to say is that fertility is not a women's issue, it is a family issue where the women carry the brunt of the process and the weight of all of that. So right, even if You get married and you went to all your OB appointments and everything's in tip-top shape and you know, you've been crunchy granola, you've been doing everything right, you didn't get yourself into any trouble, you're not a heavy drinker, smoker. And I'm not saying that men are the problem, I'm saying men could also be the problem, and I don't think it's seen that way. 40 to 50 % is very high. for it to be a male difficulty. yeah, everything is just so uncertain, even when you're married. So you just have to put one foot in front of the other and make responsible decisions and not let the fear take over that you're going too hard with trying to take over and be in charge, but that you're not being lax and seem like you could care less about the process.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. I think it's probably sorry, go ahead.

Rachel: Yeah, no, this...

Julie Pernikoff: It's it's it has to be extremely difficult to maintain that balance when you're literally sticking yourself with a needle and you have like a fear of needles. Like that's mad kudos. Just huge props to be able to maintain that emotional, ⁓ cognitive ⁓ mental balance when

Rachel: It's a pleasure. Yeah, it's even harder when it's so expensive. Yeah. And then at least in my clinic, there's an app that updates you with all your daily blood test results and numbers. It's just a lot of numbers. It's a lot of numbers that could fluctuate. And you don't know what they mean. So you're sitting there and chat, GBT being like, all these numbers combined.

Julie Pernikoff: Right. There's like so many things coming at you. How can you possibly be balanced about it? It's really challenging sounding. Wow. Yeah.

Rachel: What's happening? ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: I just saw a video somewhere and said like, stop telling Chat GBT everything. Like, okay, well, too late. Like, can we it's helpful to ask questions. So, what what do you mean? So I'm sure there's a lot of Chat GBT involved in that. So what what in terms of all of this? I mean, this you've this has been this is amazing. We're not done yet. But what do you wish that

Rachel: I know. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for being interested in this topic, by the way. I don't think that a lot of people are even aware that this is such a big deal. So for you putting a limelight on it, and I really hope that people gain from this, even if it's not a step that they take or a process they take, just so that they're informed.

Julie Pernikoff: Hosh. Yeah.

Rachel: Sorry, continue. We were just praising each other. We were just praising each other.

Julie Pernikoff: Please. I just view it I just view it as as another form of like women championing motherhood and their children.

Rachel: You never imagine your life becoming scientific. Like that's just not how it's painted in the books or the movies or what you even see on Instagram or what you see with your friends. And granted, we don't know what's going on behind anyone's scene. I always say that Instagram is the highlight reel, right? And we get jealous of everyone's highlight reel, but you don't see their journal, right? The journal's all about all the negative stuff. Usually no one's going in their journal and being like, I got a present in the mail for my birthday. Like maybe, but for the most part, your journal is like your sweat, blood and tears and your Instagram is your highlight reel. So we really, we don't know what's going on behind anyone's journey, but you just don't imagine your journey being scientific and clinical and, uh, you know, gloves involved and tools. It's just, it's not how you see it. It's very possible though. Like it's.

Julie Pernikoff: That's great. That's a yeah. ⁓

Rachel: It's very interesting also going to a fertility clinic as a single person because you're walking in there and you recognize people and you recognize people that you know from the community, couples. around my age ⁓ you're ⁓ in alone and everyone. just kind of feels for each other, I hope. ⁓ But it's very shocking. It's very shocking to run into people almost daily that you know. ⁓ So you really just don't know what's going on behind the scenes in anyone's life.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I remember you painting that scene for me when we talked a little bit about it before. ⁓ just like walking in and the difference in experience, potentially we don't really know what other people are going through, but you're walking in on your own versus not. Like it's and it's it's such a heavy experience. How how did you talk to us a little bit about how you emotionally were able to handle all of this?

Rachel: Yeah. You're assuming I emotionally was able to handle all this? Just barely. ⁓ Yeah, no, I'm just making light. I'm making light, just a defense. But ⁓ we're not meant to go through life alone. And it's very hard to remember that sometimes, that you're allowed to go to your close friends.

Julie Pernikoff: I know you are. No, you're walking through it. How how are you getting through it? As opposed to above it, under it.

Rachel: and vent to them about your hardships and they can vent to you about different hardships. ⁓ Not everyone's entitled to your story. Like me going on this podcast is obviously a little bit vulnerable, but I do hope it does help someone. And I'm not getting, I hope like too personally detailed just because I am collecting stories from my experience and my friends' experiences and just collecting all of that. But I remember there was, ⁓ My first day of doing shots ever, take extra time your first day of stims to get everything ready. There's a lot of mixing of medications and a lot of fear that you're injecting yourself, obviously. It takes a lot more time ⁓ your first night and everything's timed. So you don't wanna make it a snap minute decision. But my first night, I decided to be with a friend who's married. and also in the medical fields. So that in case I freaked out and couldn't give myself a shot in my stomach, which is so weird, that I'd have a medical professional nearby who would know what to do. And I trusted them wholeheartedly on top of just being my friend. I'm like, that's also a medical professional. I'll just feel much safer than having someone like that nearby. And I was going through it. and she opened up to me that she was going through IVF and she felt very alone during the process because during IVF it's a team decision and you know you have a spouse with you to make that decision but it's you and your spouse in a little concoup. When my friends and I were going through egg freezing we're all talking about it. Right? It's an open conversation. We all decided together or at different times, but it was a conversation and we had support in that sense. We might not have support from spouse, but we had support with each other. And that's something that, you know, my friends going through IVF don't have. So, and she never got to kind of process that emotionally. She was just going through the motions, but when she was doing it with me, she was not even married, but going through a very similar process, it was very full circle for her, it sounded like. was really amazing. So really, I think that's just an example of how we're really not supposed to go through life alone. And even if it's not your struggle, it could be something similar and we can all still be there to support each other. Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: That's really amazing, Rachel. What is something that ⁓ anyone, married or not married, can can do to be supportive? You know, is it is it sending a care package? Is it sending a meal? Is it just calling up? ⁓ what like actually is supportive and helpful?

Rachel: That is a really great question that I never actually thought of. No, it's all good. I never thought of it. I can give like a similar example that did happen to me just because I wasn't so open about it at the time to even like receive that support. But when I had spoken to an organization about, know, like the finances and advice and know which doctors to go to. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: It was not in the script, so I apologize. ⁓

Rachel: ⁓ and also you have to call the organization to get the supervision. So they know when things are happening and they're semi involved in the process. They're, you know, not so hands on, but they're involved. So I remember.

Julie Pernikoff: So Yeah.

Rachel: By the way, there's also just a lot of vitamins that they recommend people take during the process to improve egg quality, because it's not necessarily about quantity of eggs, it's about quality of eggs. there is, and once again, this is not medical advice, but just to be something to be aware of, there's a vitamin, I don't know if it's a vitamin or an enzyme or something, called CoQ10. I don't know why it's called that.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah, that's okay. Yeah.

Rachel: I don't know. But it apparently is supposed to help improve the quality of eggs. You're supposed to take it a few months before starting the process, which you wouldn't know. And you also wouldn't know that you're not supposed to go to a Zika island six months in advance, because who would have thought? Yeah, it's literally very similar. I'm this is like also triggering at the same time. yeah, vacations. I was like, let's go to Europe because there's no Zika in Europe.

Julie Pernikoff: ⁓ my gosh. Zika. I don't see us it's just so stressful. Yeah, yeah.

Rachel: So stressful, right? All those things, right? The raw fish. ⁓ Anyways, I was talking about the vitamins because...

Julie Pernikoff: You you can't have wait, you have to is it similar? Like you can't have raw fish at that time also or no? ⁓ okay.

Rachel: I actually don't know about the raw fish, but you know, Chachi, you get to be. It could be. I just don't eat raw fish. That doesn't apply to me. But I was like, well, grapefruits kill everything in your body. I don't know. You get worried. But ⁓ definitely speaks to a doctor. ⁓ anyways, the vitamins are, Cocutene is a big vitamin and it's helpful to just take it at any time, even if you're not currently even thinking about having a kid, just because it's good for your...

Julie Pernikoff: Okay, okay, okay. Yeah.

Rachel: body for those types of things. So anyways, I was getting a lot of vitamin orders for Kyou Kyou Tan, vitamin tea. Once again, talk to your doctor. And I was opening up this Amazon package and I was like, oh, more vitamins. And it was a candy platter from one of the organizations being like, hey, just thinking of you after your retrieval. Hope it went well.

Julie Pernikoff: That's so nice.

Rachel: And I was like, after so many weeks of just like giving up of yourself, and just being so caught up in timing and shots and things being refrigerated and so technical, so, so, so technical, and you're just like, there's gonna be more technical stuff. I was like, ⁓ my gosh, they're thinking about me. And that was such a sweet surprise. So I don't I didn't I didn't open up to friends about the process at the time to even help me. But your idea sounded amazing. And that was just an example of maybe something that can be done, just like a little treat or go out to dinner, celebrate. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: thinking about meals because because people get that, you know, after they have a baby sometimes. Like this is this is also

Rachel: Yeah, no, a meal train would totally be appropriate. A registry, a meal train, not so equal. It really would be like very helpful and very supportive.

Julie Pernikoff: This is what did you say? ⁓ registry. Yeah. No, it's just Yeah, no, absolutely. what if you don't mu I don't know if this is okay. I hope it's okay. Can you like throw out some organization names or maybe just the ones that you even used if that's okay? Just have a couple

Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the biggies, the biggies are Bony Olam and E-Time. And they have rabbis on staff, if you have questions, that are obviously extremely skilled and very knowledgeable because this is what they do all day every day for so many different types of people. Those are the big ones that especially work with singles as well. I know that different organizations have a little bit of different like niches that they kind of focus on, but bonyolum and atime I can see for certain are really helpful. And there are a lot of WhatsApp groups and Instagram accounts that I found extremely helpful. To name a few Instagram accounts, I was supposed to have a baby. Farming the city, just walk through visually, a really great representation of what it looks like to freeze your eggs as a single person. Excellent, excellent content. Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Great, great. Thank you. Thank you. Is there anything else that you want to share with us before we before we wrap up? ⁓ I I'm I'm like, how how are we how is this possi? This is just like what what do you what do you want because there what do you want people to know before we wrap up? I mean, I think you really you really did a nice job, but is there anything else that you might want share with us that can help people to understand and be prepared?

Rachel: Yeah, don't even know where to start. I'm really trying to think. ⁓ I think I learned that resilience doesn't always look positive. ⁓ Look positive. Yeah, and it doesn't always feel positive. And that's okay. Like we really take our shot list one day at a time. You can do one day of shots and just be like, I'm out.

Julie Pernikoff: Doesn't always what? ⁓ look positive.

Rachel: This is a lot and you can back at it at any point. It is a safe process. It has been done so many times. It's secure and safe. And I think I said before, building capacity for uncertainty was a really big learning curve in life in general, but it really hit home during this process.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Rachel: And yeah, can really, you can really feel broken by not this process, just even the stage of life, you can really feel broken, like, you might not good enough and you know, fears and doubts start creeping in. ⁓ It's not true. ⁓ And there are just like so many wonderful friends and organizations and resources available. Like I said, I don't think I brought this up before. The medications can cost five to $6,000, but ⁓ there are organizations that can help you get it for under $1,000. There are so many tips and tricks out there. Please feel free to reach out so I can connect you to the right resources. like I said, there are WhatsApp groups, there are Instagram accounts, there are resources available.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. No, you did not say that. That's amazing.

Rachel: You are not alone. It's really feels like you are alone, but you're not. You just have to have the right resources to tap into. And it makes it a lot sweeter. It's still really hard. It's really hard. And like I said, I think about my kids all the time. And sometimes I make like life decisions based off of, you know, what I want my future to look like for them. And I'm really hopeful that this is going to happen. ⁓ And just sometimes biology and your timeline don't match up at the exact same time. And we're all trying our best. We're all trying our best. And thank you for bringing light to this.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Rachel. My pleasure. Thank you for being here. Thank you for speaking and just Rachel and I know each other for a long time. This is this is this is really, really nice. This was really ⁓ my God, not at all.

Rachel: She raised me and my mom. We went through a lot of nights together with, you know, talking about a lot of these, not necessarily this exact topic, but you know, some of these harder topics in life that we were all strong, we're all strong for each other at different points, right? Sometimes like I was up and you were having a harder day and we, you know, meet in the middle.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Yeah. And so definitely some moments where I was having a hard time and you're like, are you okay? ⁓ Yeah, we were single together for a long time. It's true. No, Rachel, it's awesome. This is so important. And I just just want to highlight also that like,

Rachel: It's real.

Julie Pernikoff: we all have commonality in struggles and sacrifices and they're all but they're all so different and so unique. But we all have so much in common. ⁓ Married, not married, mothers, soon to be mothers. There's so much and there's so much what we can relate on. And just that story of your friend sharing with you that she's going through IBF, I mean like that is that puts it perfectly. Perfectly. So call it you for giving her that space to then be able to not feel alone. So yeah. Thank you for being here, Rachel. This was fantastic. I can't wait for people to use this. My pleasure.

Rachel: Thank you. And really reach out. ⁓

Julie Pernikoff: ⁓ yeah, how can people reach you? Thank you. How can people reach you?

Rachel: Um, I would say the best ways maybe my, yeah, I'm not going to list my phone number. was like, what's the best way to go about this? Um, I think the best way is maybe my, my public account on Instagram. Um, kosher compass co is my handle. I don't know how to spell that. It's actually sounds like a lot of S's and we'll put it in the show notes. Kosher compass co.

Julie Pernikoff: No pressure to like list your phone number every to ⁓ We'll put it we'll put it in the show notes. But yeah, go check up this co. Which also is a great example to follow regardless. But yeah. So all right. ⁓ my gosh. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much, Rachel.

Rachel: you Can I choo-le-boo-lee?

Julie Pernikoff: Wait, how do I end the recording?