Social Worker, Business Woman, Visionary, and Mother: Sara Schreiber LCSW CGP

Julie Pernikoff: Hello and welcome to Sarah Shriver. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Into Motherhood. We have Sarah here. Hi, Sarah. This is so exciting. Sarah and I are very good friends and we've known each other for a very long time. I'm gonna just start off by reading her bio and then we'll just kind of schmooze and get started on our questions.

Sara: Hey.

Julie Pernikoff: All right, so Sarah Schreiber, LCSW CGP, is a licensed clinical social worker, certified group psychotherapist, and the founder of the Group Practice Collaborative Minds Psychotherapy LLC. She is passionate about supporting clients through group therapy and helping therapists successfully start, market, fill, and run therapy groups in private practice through her consulting business, Groups in Private Practice LLC. Sarah Schreiber, welcome to Into Motherhood.

Sara: Thanks for having me. I feel so honored to be a guest here.

Julie Pernikoff: Let's watch. my gosh, of course. I'm so excited to have you. just a little throwback. I don't know if you remember the first time that we met. Sorry, I didn't give you a heads up about this, but do you I you really don't? Wait, what where when do you think it was?

Sara: Yeah, me too. Of course. No, I totally remember. Yes. I really do. Okay, let me tell you. Okay. Stern cafeteria. maybe this isn't the same memory, but my memory is Stern Cafeteria. Shoot, we met before this. Okay, well, you came over to me and friends that I was sitting with and you started talking to us and you were like, we have mutual friend slash relative. And then we were just chatting and hit it off and

Julie Pernikoff: Not my Maybe that was the first.

Sara: Forever best friends after that. Well, what's your memory?

Julie Pernikoff: Was that the first time I remember us meeting at like like the fair? I think I was running like a Tehelum club then. And I was like, my god, maybe that was before we became friends and I was like, I know that girl.

Sara: I have no memory of that. That is too funny. There is no way that I would have gone over to a Tahelem club table. I'm so sorry. not because it's not cool. Tell him's just not my jam. Starting off this podcast announcing how I feel about Tahelim. But so many other things are. But but yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Yes. Absolutely. That was very cool. No, that's totally fine. Like it's not my jam. no, but maybe Yes. Maybe maybe th your your story is how we met. I don't remember. No, I don't remember. I'm so sad. I was like Well maybe

Sara: Well it sounds like you do remember. I want to hear the version of me saying to hillum with you at a tahillum club event.

Julie Pernikoff: That you can't maybe 'cause you just like came over and that was us introducing ourselves. I remember you had a really cute, like shorter haircut. Right. Actually similar to now, but it was straight and like kinda like Yeah, it was very cute. yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Okay, whatever. Well, many years down

Sara: I did, yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I had like side bangs. Yeah, thanks. Maybe that was the first time we met and then I we met again and that time like solidified for me that we were f we we were becoming friends in my memory.

Julie Pernikoff: Okay, that could be that really could be. I don't know. Okay, well whatever it is. We became friends. I know.

Sara: But long time ago, what, like t more than I can't do math, fourteen years ago or something? my gosh. Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah, maybe fourteen years ago. I probably was like twenty twenty one. Yeah. Wow. Now I'm just like thinking about that. Okay, should we get to should we get to it? I but I'm thinking about it now.

Sara: I know. I was just thinking like it's just so it's so special to have like we've really been consistently close all these years and that's a really sp special thing that like I don't think a lot of people can say that about a friend they met in college that they've stayed like this close for this long.

Julie Pernikoff: I know. Lee Ayanhara, it really is. Yeah. I feel like we also grew a lot together along the way. and we were there for each other at different times. It's like we had like good communication too. Yeah.

Sara: yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, ideal friends. So proud of us.

Julie Pernikoff: So Sarah Shriver, tell us it's so funny because on podcasts I get very annoyed when people do too much talking and with like before the questions. I'm like, just get to the main meat of it. But like I don't even care, I don't even care. Let's just smooth. Like it's fine. so so yeah.

Sara: my god, no, I love it. It's all about the banter. Yeah. Yes. By the way, just a side note, like I love podcasts where I feel like I'm listening in on two people having a private conversation and I'm like, I want in on that.

Julie Pernikoff: That's funny. Love it. Love it. I'm so I'm more like tell me what the deal is and like go really fast and talk about like if someone's will put it on quicker, Whatever. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Like there's certain podcasts that like I can't listen to. And then other people I know like love. But like, okay. So hopefully people will find. Well yeah, we'll have both. We're gonna we're definitely gonna get into it. So they'll have both here. So

Sara: Do you like skip ahead? You're like, where's the where's the content? Where are questions? okay. So we're a combo of both of those styles. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah, we need to write this minute because we've already lost like 20 people. Okay.

Julie Pernikoff: Let's do it. Let's okay. So talk tell us about talk to us about your work. Actually, no, before we talk about your work, tell us about who you are and what your hobbies are. Is that okay if we go with that one first? Who like who are you? Just give us a little little tint.

Sara: yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah, so I'm Sarah. wow, who am I? I I could say so many things, I guess, but I live in Bergenfield, New Jersey, but I'm not from here. I'm from I grew up in Toronto actually, but also was born in LA. so had like a bunch of different places that I've lived throughout my life. and have landed here in Bergenfield for now. And I have three children, so I'm married. I'm my celebrating my 12th wedding anniversary this next month. Yeah. and we've got three kids and our oldest, thank you. so we have an eight-year-old, a six-year-old, and an almost three-year-old. It's two boys and a girl. And

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. That's amazing.

Sara: I'm a therapist. I'm an LCSW and a therapist. And I'm also I have a consulting business where I teach therapists both clinical and business skills. So it's like I've got a lot going on professionally, a lot going on personally. I'm making aliyah also next month. So that's also happening in my life. So there's there's like a whole lot of stuff happening. when you say tell me who you are, I it's like hard to really know.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. It's all intertwined.

Sara: Work in progress.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Sara: but what I will say about my hobbies, which is what you asked, is that I really love reading and it's I don't read physical books so much, a little bit on Shabbos, but mostly I read I I listen to audiobooks. So yeah, and that's a hobby. I've always loved reading. As a kid, I loved reading, and then during college and grad school I kind of just like put that aside to read textbooks.

Julie Pernikoff: nice.

Sara: had hard time reading for pleasure and since grad school like I've picked it back up and it's just been really nice to have that as an outlet. And then also like I love creating content on social media. I find that to actually be really fun. And so I don't know if it's a hobby because it does it is a a job. Like it is part, it's how I funnel my whole like where I get all of my therap therapist clients for my my consulting business. But I find it really fun. So

Julie Pernikoff: That's great.

Sara: I wouldn't say it's a hobby, but it is something that I enjoy. And honestly, my work overall, I really enjoy that too. So, when people ask me like, What are your hobbies? I'm like, I don't know. I I like to work, I like reading. What do you say?

Julie Pernikoff: Great. Well you like reading. I feel like you're really good at I don't know if it's a hobby, but you're good at cooking also.

Sara: my gosh, that is the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. Well, no. I know. Well, what's so funny is that I actually like really don't like cooking at all. I love making like the fastest, quickest thing. Like if it has as few r ingredients as possible, the better. but I have this memory of you coming for dinner one night and you were like, what should I bring? And it was like a weeknight, like

Julie Pernikoff: Don't think so. I think you are. Unless I don't always know what you make versus what not you make, but

Sara: You just came over, like we were just like hanging out. And I was like, you want like you don't have to bring anything. You're like, No, no, no, I I I I can't have you make dinner. Like you're making the mane. I will bring something. And I said, Okay, you want to bring green beans? And you said, Okay. And you came over and the green and you brought raw green beans. And you were like, I did not know. I don't I've never made green beans. I don't know how to make green beans. I don't I so they're raw. And I taught you how to blanch them for three minutes in boiling water. So I but it's funny.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. I don't even remember that part. I just remember the first

Sara: When you say that I am a good cook, I'm like thinking like because I know how to make green beans is maybe your reference.

Julie Pernikoff: Yes. That will put you on the map, Sarah. my gosh. That's actually s so embarrassing on so many levels. but that is really funny.

Sara: Ha ha ha. You don't have we could cut that part. Or it's fun to keep it in, I don't know. But yeah, no. I don't I don't enjoy cooking. I just 'cause I I do not know. Not a hop.

Julie Pernikoff: It's fine. I think we'll keep it. It's my immense editing skills. No, but I also want to say sorry, yeah. You don't enjoy cooking. Happens I actually also I'm not. Okay, more about you. Happens I know I get it. It's I also I don't love cooking. But but I feel like you are good at it though. So there's a there's a good difference. But I do think it's very convenient and it's great and it shows that you like creating content because It's kind of like it can in some for some people it might not be as enjoyable, but it's like a necessity. So like it's great that it works out that you like it and it helps your business. So

Sara: Yeah. I think honestly I feel that way about my work overall. Like I really love the work that I do. And like, you know, when I'm giving a training on group therapy or I'm running a group even, I feel like people can find, like they can see my excitement about what I'm talking about shining through because I love it so much and I feel so passionate about it. And so I think if I didn't love it, I wouldn't be able to do it. So yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: That's really nice. Yeah. that's amazing. Okay. So good. All right. So so talk to us a little bit about your practice and then also we'll let's go into your courses. And we'll get to motherhood. But this is all part of your

Sara: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So my practice is so it's a group private practice, which means that it's I was in solo practice. I was a therapist seeing clients one on one. I was also running groups. And then I was just completely like I was seeing maybe twenty individual clients a week and four groups a week. So I was seeing probably about like I had maybe like twenty five hours plus twenty five plus hours of one like therapy. I was providing a week. And that is that feels exhausting because you're holding so much. Like every every hour is another person, like you're giving to another person. And it it just can be really exhausting. And especially as a mom. and we were talking about well our oldest was going to be going to kindergarten. And so at daycare the hours are a lot longer. And so I was able to work until maybe like 6 p.m every day. But as he was going to be starting kindergarten like a year from the this time, we said, you know, I'm gonna have to be more I want I want to be more on. Like I want to be able to pick him up when he ends school and be able to to hang. And we also wanted to have another baby. And so you know, we my husband and I were like, okay, well, what should we do? How should we figure this out in terms of like professionally? And I decided, I thought that maybe starting a group practice would make sense. And that I had basically a year to work on it to get it launched so that by the time the following September came around and he started kindergarten, I would have like a way reduced schedule and I would also be able to and but but sorry, but my income like wouldn't change. That was the goal. Was to not make more money than I was making right then. It was just to make it differently. and so I ended up also getting pregnant.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Sara: And so the group practice like really took off a c few months before I had the baby. And so there was a lot of maybe, maybe a little. I was actually I think it was I was building it that whole first year leading up to I had the baby, my son went to kindergarten. and I was able to take a maternity leave and like really see, like take a step back and just like have the group practice running. And so I hired therapists to see clients within my practice. And this was when I started started the group practice, I wanna say it was like four years ago. And so it's been really cool to look back and see over the course of the last four years just how it's grown and we're I would say I I consider us a a small practice. We have about five or six therapists in it. Some are full time, some are part time an admin intake coordinator and administrator. and we have l a year ago we got like real office space we had been subletting and then we got so we have like this beautiful office now that has three like it's a suite with three offices and you have to come see it. Yeah, it's really it just feels really like I feel really proud of what I've been able to build. and you know and then like I've over the last

Julie Pernikoff: Just go come see it. Yeah.

Sara: couple years like really worked at reducing my caseload and especially in preparation for our move this summer, I knew I really needed to really cut down. And so I really now I only see like four or five individual clients a week. and I still run I have like supervision groups and I have my therapy groups and my training groups. So I have a lot of groups that I'm running and you know groups I'm running through my my other business. But But from the the one on one clients, like I'm really doing a lot less of that because my capacity for it really has changed and and my passion for therapy has changed in terms of the type of therapy that I like to do. And I really, really love group work and I'm excited about doing more of that, and less of the one on one.

Julie Pernikoff: how do you feel about your your changes in your workflow and then also like

Sara: Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: How do you feel about the fact that you have different feelings about it over time? You know,

Sara: Yeah. the type of individual therapy that I primarily do is acceptance and commitment therapy. And the version or the the style that I really practice within is very relational, very values based. a lot of like present moment awareness, checking in about how you're feeling as we're in the work together. tolerating uncomfortable feelings, talking about uncomfortable feelings, understanding patterns that are happening in your life, understanding how they show up between you and I in the therapy room. All of that feels really like valuable for one on one work. And then group, I am trained as a I do modern analytic group therapy, which is has a huge emphasis also on the here and now. how I'm feeling in the moment, how the, or not me, but how the group, how the members are feeling in the moment towards each other, towards me, towards themselves. and so honestly, like the kind of work I do individually and the kind of work I do in group really feel very, very similar to one another. And I actually a lot of times with my individual clients often feel like I wish there were other people here so that we can work on some of this stuff more than what we can do. Like I feel limited by one on one versus group.

Julie Pernikoff: Wow, that's so that's so fascinating. And that makes so much sense. But it's also interesting because each therapist, like each clinician, would probably feel differently about each of those scenarios. But that's what makes everyone unique.

Sara: Totally. Yeah, exactly. And I think also like the type of group that I'm trained in is hard to do. You know, it's not like I think individual therapy is easier in a lot of ways in terms of what with our training. Like we're mostly trained in individual. And so I sought out a ton more group therapy training and now you know, I do I engage all the time in a lot of group therapy training and so I feel like I I'm I'm thinking about it more. And so using what I'm learning more than learning new individual skills to bring to my individual clients. Like it's I feel like my training priorities too are are within groups.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. Wow, your training priorities. Right. Like it's almost like

Sara: Like when I'm in my own, like when I'm seeking out CEs and I'm getting trained and things like that, like oftentimes it is more group focused 'cause that's what I really enjoy.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. I think that's kind of the amazing part about having a social work degree because you have flexibility to go into different areas of what you like, even within the clinical world. So that's amazing. ta yeah, of course. talk to us a little bit more about your work with therapists.

Sara: Yeah, thanks. Yeah. So I when I was on maternity leave, actually, I started thinking about how everyone would reach out to me and they'd be like, Hey, can I pick your brain about how you started a group practice? Can I pick your brain about how you run groups? Can I a lot of p wanting people wanting to pick my brain? And I while I was on leave, I did have the time for it. And I remember actually talking to somebody on the phone and she was like, Everything you're telling me is really valuable information and you should be charging people for this. And I was like, no. I as you said, that's a good friend. It was someone I don't even now I think we've like become friendly, but like I didn't even know her. She I met her on a listserv and I offered, I was like, I've got the time. I'm on maternity leave. And so it was really, I was like, huh, interesting. And I think even also my sister had told me, maybe even like a year before that conversation, she had been like.

Julie Pernikoff: That's a great that's a great thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara: You know, I've been learning a lot about like building other streams of income and things like that. And she's like, You should really start a course. And I'm like, what would I talk about? Like, what would my course be about? You know? And she was like, I'm sure you could figure something out. And so then I saw that more and more people were wanting information from me about running groups. And I had actually been doing these like 90 minute workshops that were live. Teaching people about groups and I was getting a lot of people interested in them. And I had just started posting on Instagram and I was getting people from listservs and from Instagram and LinkedIn and Facebook, like not just not just Instagram. And so I was like, uh-huh, maybe I should I should create a course. And so I really focused on my Instagram like content in preparation for that So I was really just focusing on building up like a brand on Instagram, probably for like six months or something before I launched my course. maybe more, but I also at the same time created a course, a business course, teaching therapists how to start groups in their practices. And I launched it in July of 2024, so two years ago. And I I have over 200 people who are inside of it, which is like crazy mind blowing to me. And it keeps getting better over time. I keep adding to it. And people who join it get lifetime access to like lifetime of the course, access to quarterly coaching calls. so they can pop in every quarter if they want to, to ask me any questions. It's like office hours, ask me any questions they have.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm.

Sara: and it's just so cool to be able to have I I really enjoy that part of it. but then I was seeing that people were starting groups and then they were like, wait, but I don't know how to run a group. And they were having like clinical questions. So I decided to start clinical training for people. And that's where the process group experience came in. I appreciate it.

Julie Pernikoff: Sarah, you are unbelievable. You're unbelievable. No, you're Of course. can I just ask you a question? Back to the green beans. When we were that age, when we were young, like can you ever can you ever have imagined what you've built at this point?

Sara: Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Like hearing you talk about and I just keep thinking about your posts being like another person on Kajabi and I'm like, what is Kajabi? But then like I slowly figured it out. But like it is so exciting when you get new students, therapist students. And like I can you're talking about it and also in your posts, like I can feel how excited you are. So like it's just amazing what you've built. And yeah, I don't know what what

Sara: Ha ha ha Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: What what would you tell your younger self like before, you know, doing all of this? 'Cause I don't know if people were envisioned it. I definitely didn't know this was gonna happen. This is awesome.

Sara: my god. Yeah. I think I would say like keep being creative. Cause you can you can do anything. And I think I to be honest, I think I knew that. Like I don't think I could envision that I was gonna do what I'm doing now, but I did always have this like creative spark to me that didn't come out through art like Rich at fine art, but it came out through photography and graphic design and writing and just different things that I would do. and business, I was always like a little entrepreneur. Always. Like. so I

Julie Pernikoff: Was your first what was your first business?

Sara: I had a photography business in high school where I like Sardan productions. I made videos

Julie Pernikoff: Amazing. It's not

Sara: and I would charge people three hundred and fifty dollars like an evening to come and f film their events and then edit it. And yeah. it was pretty good. I rem I just talked about yeah, I did. I made a post about it recently. Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: I feel like I just saw a post I feel like you just posted about this. Yeah, I did just and I was like three fifty at that time? That is amazing. That's amazing.

Sara: I know. But I was the budget pick because like you know, you can have a high schooler or you can have an adult for a lot more. So yeah, I was and then yeah, I became I was a lifeguard and I was a swimming teacher and I was a babysitter. I don't know, I did all sorts of stuff. But yeah, the video ph photography thing was like a real business that I I mean, obviously it wasn't like incorporated. I mean it was just really it was I always had that in me. So I think like looking back to when I was in grad school, which is probably the time of the the green bean incident, we I think I I had a feeling that I would do something, but I didn't know what. And honestly, like at that time, like being a therapist on social media wasn't, I don't think was really a thing. Maybe Facebook groups. yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Totally. But before COVID also. Yeah.

Sara: Well before COVID.

Julie Pernikoff: Totally, totally.

Sara: But can I just say about that the process group experience, like how I what that is. So so yeah, so because people were starting groups and needing clinical training.

Julie Pernikoff: What yeah, yeah, go ahead. Mm-hmm.

Sara: I was like, okay, I I should start these like 12 week training groups. So the way that it worked is it was it's run, so it's not therapy, but it can be therapeutic. And you run it through I run it through my business, not my therapy practice. so it's therapists from all over the world and I I mostly of people from America and some from Canada and sometimes from other countries in the world. but it's 12 weeks of

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm.

Sara: experiential group therapy in the modern analytic process style that I am trained in. And week thirteen is a didactic where we go back and look at what we just did together and I teach them like theory and all of that from what we like giving real examples from our group and they ask me questions and it's very rich. And so that's been really cool and really rewarding. I also run a consultation group. like a process style consultation consultation group for a group therapists who are actively running groups. so yeah, it's been it's been so cool to support therapists in doing this work.

Julie Pernikoff: Sounds amazing. Like it really sounds amazing. I'm so impressed. that's so I guess actually a great segue into that. Honestly, that I'm thinking about, I'm like, wow, our days all look so different. Everyone's day is so different. How, how does your daily schedule work? And then how and how is it going with your personal life in terms of that? Like, how is your daily schedule going from day to day? And then how are you blending that and making that work with your life?

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean it's a total blend. Like it doesn't even feel like two different things. So my day, you know, starts like during the school year. It starts with us waking up, getting I drive carpool in the morning, I drop my husband off at the train on our way to school. Have two different drop offs. So I do, you know, we have elementary school and then daycare. And then I come home and most days I work from home. So it's like an hour round trip of carpool and then I'm back home and by nine and then I start usually like I I work from nine to four. I am very guilty of very rarely taking a lunch break, but I do eat in the middle of the day. I just my my middle of the day meetings are typically like internal meetings so I can eat during them. But I also will

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Sara: like have a 30 minute break, let's say instead. And we'll where I I'll have lunch. So it's not whatever. But yeah. So I'm working nine to four. And then at like four o'clock I have to I quickly, quickly make dinner. So this is where my amazing fancy cooking skills come into play. I make dinner in 10 minutes or less. and I can tell you another time about what I make. But

Julie Pernikoff: Right. Important. Yeah. Yeah. Love to hear it.

Sara: Very quick dinners and they taste good too. like I take chicken and I like put literally one spice from Trader Joe's everyday seasoning on it on either side and put it in the oven. And I set it on a timer. So I do like everything is like goes in the oven, put good and on a timer, and then I go and do afternoon carpool. So another like hour round trip of carpool. Come home, dinner's ready, give the kids dinner, do the whole evening, bath, bed, whatever routine. During that time is when Nati gets home from work. and he like walks from the bus or the train, which is like a 20, 30 minute walk. so and then I I've been better about not working at night. So then typically I'm like done. I have a personal trainer. With not we do it together on Monday nights. Yeah, we do personal training. It's so fun on Monday nights together. So after the kids go to sleep, Tuesday nights like nothing.

Julie Pernikoff: Okay. I was about to ask about that. Yeah. How's that going?

Sara: I go to a kickboxing class on Wednesday nights. And then Thursday nights I run a group. I run in my young my young adult group, which we have been going for four years. and so that group is Thursday nights. and then Fridays I don't really work. I have like it's kind of like anything. It's my book like extra day of whatever extra meetings I needed to have. But I try to be finished with everything by one PM because also then I have to go pick up the kids from school at one o'clock on Fridays, yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah, they got finished earlier. Sarah, when do you when do you go food shopping?

Sara: Sundays. I go wait, so I go food shopping on Sundays. Well, I like at someone. We do like Trader Joe's and s and like the Cedar Market, like the kosher meat protein, ju kosher market on Sundays for and for the whole week. So I have this I make the same dinners every every night. I mean every week I make the same thing, basically. So it's like chicken, meatballs, tacos, and like a dairy night. So that's like

Julie Pernikoff: Okay. Yes. It's always an extra stop. Yep.

Sara: fr freezer pizza and wacky mac and salmon, it's like whatever. everyone's basically eating something different that night. and then Thursday nights when I am doing my group, because I it's a virtual group mostly and then once a month we meet in person. So when it's virtual, no I'm doing it from home and Nati goes out and does the Shabbos food shopping on Thursday nights. And then he makes Chavez. Yes. So I don't what? my God. yeah, we haven't done those in a while. But yeah, he does like he probably he makes most of Shabbos. He makes cala, he makes steak, he makes he makes everything on Fridays. And so that also, like just in terms of my schedule during the week, I'm on. Like I am mostly with the kids. Like he gets home pretty late. I'm making dinner, I'm dealing with

Julie Pernikoff: he made okay. Those smashed potatoes. Love them. The smashed potatoes he's he he's I love them. he'll

Sara: Like it's all on me and then it's nice to like kind of have cooking off for the weekend.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah, that helped do that that that on Friday. Wow. And but you're

Sara: Yeah. And he works from home on Fridays, so he can multitask.

Julie Pernikoff: Okay. So with all of that in mind, and that was so helpful. Like I'm gonna just like freeze frame that whole thing and just I'm gonna go talk about it with my husband and be like, okay, this is what we're gonna do. The meal planning is on point. That is so good. So great. so talk to us. I mean, talk to us a little bit about, you know, your your journey through all of this because we've talked a lot about

Sara: That's so much information. Ha ha ha ha. my god.

Julie Pernikoff: your career at this point. And I could just to use that phrase from before, like pick your brain even more. But let's let's kind of shift, but also still hold on to that piece because it's all part of the same thing. But talk to us about your journey through motherhood, to motherhood, into it, and then through it.

Sara: Yeah. Yes. Okay. So the first thing that's coming to mind is I was hanging out I don't remember where when, pre like if if if it was before I had kids or right when I was like pregnant or about or already had one. But it was early on in my motherhood journey and I was talking and I was with a non-Jewish grad school friend and we went out for we went out to eat. And I was telling her about like, yeah, we're gonna start, we're gonna have a baby soon. Either I don't know, if it either I was trying or whatever. It was like coming up. And she was dating somebody who she has since married and had a had a child with. but at the time she was like, like I'm, you know, I feel like I need to have my LCSW first before I can get married and then like we're and then after that we'll buy a house and then after that we'll start trying for a baby. And I remember thinking like what like or I and I said to her, I said, in my world, like career doesn't come, it's not like one of the steps in terms of making a family. It's just come, it happens parallel. So I am going to be building my family and my career at the same time. And everyone around me seems to be doing that too.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm, mm-hmm.

Sara: And she was just like, wow, that's really like neat, basically. Like it was just a different perspective than what she knew of from her life. And I always think about that because I think like in our like Orthodox Jewish world, for those of us who do get married at the same time that we're like launching into our careers. it does often happen that we're building a career at the same time that we're building a family. And for some I think they can get lost in motherhood. I mean, there's different ways I think that happen that it can happen. So some people I think maybe will take a break to be a mother and then come back to career or some might not do that at all and some might get married later, right? And like have the career first and then become a mother and take a big break for that. I know my mom did that. She took 10 years off. She got married at close to thirty, had four kids and just like raised us for 10 years and then went back. She was a lawyer. She went back to being a lawyer. after once we were a little older. And so I for her it was like she had the career or already. She was ready for the next for like the the parenthood piece. And I think for me I was just so excited about both. And it felt like something that was really in reach. And financially we couldn't have one income. Like life's expensive. We lived in New York, you know, so I think like also there's like a realistic piece to it too.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Wow. It's so interesting because as as you know, as I've met people in my life, as you've also like, you know, as you meet different people, everyone has different journeys literally into motherhood. And your angle of of talking about it that you grew both at the same time is so

Sara: So

Julie Pernikoff: So beautifully put. And also for some people that's their experience. And for other people, it's different. So it's amazing. It's so unique for everyone. And this is your story. It's very special. It's very special. How how do you feel that one has impacted the other? Like how has being a therapist impacted your work as a mother? Your work, your your role, your experience, your your job as a mother? And then how does being a mother impact your experience as a therapist?

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My work. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's been so good. like it it's that was very let me let me try that again. I I so in grad school I was trained as a child trauma therapist. I was in like a specific trauma cohort and or child trauma cohort specifically. And so when I graduated I got a job also being a child therapist and got a a lot of

Julie Pernikoff: Take your time. Take your time.

Sara: additional training in parent management training and in just like child specific therapy. And and then I got to work, right? Started working, doing using these modalities and being in supervision and getting like additional training and guidance and all of that. And actually I got pregnant like the first week of my first job of grad school, I also found out I was pregnant. So I was literally, literally building like a career and a family at the same time. And I so I had a lot of anxiety just about like being new, new to the field, like my career and being pregnant. And also like I was really young. I was like 23 or 24. yeah, I think I was 24. So there was a lot of so I was learning a lot and I was really enjoying working with kids and working with parents. And then I had a child and I remember sitting on the floor with the kids that I was the therapist of and thinking, like, right now, while I'm on the floor with this child, I have a nanny that I'm paying sitting on the floor with mine. And I felt so I was like, like, I don't really want to be working with kids, you know, like, and especially because I would then get up. get up like off the floor, but then I would go home and I would then be with my child. And I was I felt like I had less energy for him because I was giving it away to all these other kids during the day. And it really helped me see like I think I want to work with older kids. Like the younger kids, I just need to preserve my energy for my own. And when I went into private practice, my own private practice, I really was only seeing like teens and up. and I love working with teens. And I would always say, like, I wonder one day when I have teenagers, like, will I no longer want to work? Like, will it be the same thing? Yeah, like I don't know. I guess I'll find out. But but what's actually really cool is my practice does still work with kids, and I supervise the therapists working with kids. And I think my perspective of having li young, like elementary school aged kids now.

Julie Pernikoff: Like you gotta preserve your energy.

Sara: And being a parent to them, like I really I feel like I really understand the dynamics from a more developmental point of view as like someone with lived experience of it versus like what the textbooks are teaching us. So even when they're talking about certain dynamics, like if in in our, you know, supervision meetings, I'll talk about like different dynamics with the family and and I'll say I'll say things like, you know, like the parents are probably experiencing XYZ. And I'm just saying it because I know because I'm a parent and

Julie Pernikoff: Is that

Sara: you know, I have friends who are parents and so I think being a parent and being in like the world of parenting with other like in a community of people parenting has definitely helped me be a better therapist than if I was not in that world, especially being like a child therapist. And then in terms of how it's helped my parenting, I have learned a lot of skills, a lot of tool, a lot of parenting techniques.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm,

Sara: that I y totally use with my kids. So I do feel like I have like a leg up in some ways in terms of knowing like how to how to do it, I guess. And at the same time, I think it also gives me more anxiety because I'm like, I'm gonna traumatize them by not looking at them enough or whatever, you know?

Julie Pernikoff: my god. Hold on. It's like

Sara: Like I think like I get really in my head about like how bad everything could could be and how they're gonna be so messed up.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. That's really funny. And so valid. I'm sure so many people feel that way, by the way, Sarah. Like I'm sure a lot of No, I'm thinking I'm even forget about it. Everybody for sure feels that way. But therapists for sure, I'm sure a lot of them are like, my gosh. And that's the moment when, you know, it's because you know so much. Sometimes it's hard to know a lot. So

Sara: Like even not therapists.

Julie Pernikoff: That's what w well, that's a good segue actually also. I was I'm wondering like what and what types of challenges have you experienced then in this realm, being a therapist and a mother and just you know, just being a mother. What type of challenges have you encountered that, you know, you feel comfortable sharing?

Sara: yeah, okay. I have two boys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have two boys and I come from a family that has three girls and one boy. And I always say having growing up with sisters, like primarily sisters, did not prepare me to have two boys. These boys are so loud, they are always throwing things in the air.

Julie Pernikoff: Emphasis emphasis on the comfortable, whatever's comfortable.

Sara: like balls, they're keepas. They're it's just like constantly things being thrown in the air. And they're like snorting and burping and farting. And like it's just so loud all the time. And I think like I just I did not know that parenting came with that much noise. And I get really I think like since having kids I've become more sensitive to noise. I actually heard there's like some sort of evolutionary thing about that because like we have to listen out to our baby to like predators from like an evolutionary stand I don't I don't know if this is true or not, but this is what I heard that like your ears after you've had a baby, your ear drums like get more like you you can hear hear noises more, you're on more alert or something. I don't know.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. I totally believe it.

Sara: I feel like way more sensitive to sound. and I remember when even like when my kids were in daycare, and so Nazi was and he it was still like earlier on in the pandemic and he was working from home fully. So he would do pickup in those days. And so I would end work like right when they were getting home. And I remember knowing, like I would hear the car door close, and I remember being like, Okay, it's about to be chaos. And like they would just come in and it would just be like I mean, then they were younger and so there was more like tantruming and crying and they were tired and it was late, you know, it was a long day for them. So I think that was the part like not having a separation between work and then parenting was really hard. Really hard. and I imagine like people listening to this who work from home. could probably relate to that, especially like kids who take the bus, right? Like if your kids get off the bus, then again, and you're working from home, like it probably has a similar feel. I actually really like being able to do carpool because I like being forced to go downstairs, cook. Like I I can't be working. I have to be focused on making food. And then I'm leaving the house. And usually when I'm driving is when I listen to either like if I'm listening to a book, usually I make phone calls, check in with family members. Sometimes I call you, you know, so

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. I'm thinking that too. Yeah.

Sara: Yeah. So like we, you know, I have my my commute. even though it's a round trip commute back to my house, it's still a commute that takes me away and it keeps it grounds me a little bit more for for what's to come in the evening. Another really hard part about parenting is is phone addiction. Like I'm just gonna name that. Like yeah, like

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to us about it. Absolutely.

Sara: It is so hard to not check my phone in front of my kids. And I really lately, like in the last few months, I got a brick. I've been bricking my phone. It's so it's like really amazing. but before I tell you about that, I'll just say it's hard. Like I am so guilty of like being on my phone and especially running two businesses, especially like the group practice more than my other one.

Julie Pernikoff: I saw you post about that. Can you yeah, tell us.

Sara: I there's always people asking questions and usually I've not even needed, but it's like I'm in chats and they're like, this intake call, like they they who which therapist would be the best fit to work with them? I was thinking this therapist, and then I'll like see it. And I'm like, I don't need to respond, like she's gonna figure it out, but then I just can't help it. And so I'll I'll see it like come into my Apple Watch and I'll I'm the middle of dinner and I'll like run over and I try to leave my phone in the other room. But then I'll like still run over and like get on my phone and be like, Yes, I agree. I think it should be this person. And then and then I'm while I'm there, I'm like, let me just check Instagram. Let me just check my email. Let me respond to an email. Let me, you know, and then I've definitely been guilty too of like creating, like I've already filmed a reel, let's say, but like editing it maybe during bathtime, like while my daughter's having a bath. She's playing in the bath. It's fine. Like I'm just gonna sit next to her and edit. this real. And then my k other kids are coming in and they're like needing me for things as they do because they're children. And I find myself getting irritated that they're like needing me because I'm trying to finish doing something on my phone. so I'm like being really vulnerable and like honest about this because I I really don't think I'm hoping I could help people like hearing it that they're not alone. and so I've been really trying to

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Sara: work on this where I'm r like in the evenings with my kids, I have Instagram and Facebook like bricked. So I can't access it at all. Like if I click on it, I can't open it. I can't see it. And then once they're finished going to sleep, I will unbrick it. But sometimes I really need a break for myself too. If I'm like mindlessly scrolling, I don't like that either. On the weekends it's completely bricked. So like Shabbat obviously I'm not on my phone. And then Satur on Sundays though I I in the morning I just like have it totally bricked all day long and we go out and so like I can't even unbrick it 'cause we're not home. So I

Julie Pernikoff: You have to be home for it to be bricked and unbricked.

Sara: It's a physical square that you like, okay, pretend like this is the brick. You have to press a thing that says unbrick, and then you like ding. And so this needs you need this. So if I leave this at home and I go out with my phone and my phone is bricked, I can't access, like I have to get back to the brick in order to unbrick it. Yeah. So that's been good. I feel like that's been really helpful. And

Julie Pernikoff: Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara: and I want to name that that is a hard part of parenting. And there's like such a I have such a pull, especially when I'm so overstimulated, to just get lost in my phone. It's so easy, it's right there. And so really trying not to. And I do find that when I don't have access to it and that like especially on Shabbos, I feel so much more present and like happy with my kids. And I think the phone really does get in the way of that.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. It's so real. I'm really glad that you brought that up because it's a it's a really big challenge. It's a really big challenge and it's so important to be honest about that. You know, like you said, like I'm gonna name that. I think that it needs naming. I think you're right. I'm glad you brought it up. Do you feel like that's your like one of your biggest challenges right now? Like something you're really focused on, or is there something else that's like even more

Sara: I think that is something I'm really focused on. like it's an active choice every day to brick my phone because I'm like, I'm like on it and my kids are home and I don't wanna be showing up like that in front of them. So I think that is something big that I am working on.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Yeah, that's really special. which brings us to your Instagram following. You have

Sara: Which brings us to I actually did not even make the connection of what the segue was, but obviously that is a very clear connection.

Julie Pernikoff: Now I'm like, you have I checked just before to make sure that we're accurate now. You have nine thousand six hundred, maybe like sixty-four or something, followers on your Instagram. you have Instagram and then the two different practices and the motherhood piece, you know, and like the bathtime and food and all the things. How do you mentally balance everything? Because we're talking also like very physically and then dealing with it from practically dealing with brick, but mentally, where are you putting everything?

Sara: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: What are some tools that you can share with us if you don't mind?

Sara: I have ADHD, so that feels actually like a really big benefit for me. my brain works a lot faster than it would if I didn't have ADHD. I I just imagine. so I think my capacity for having quick, exciting thoughts is large. And the type of ADHD I have is that I'm also pretty impulsive. and so I'm like a very quick decision maker. So if I have an exciting thought, you bet I'm gonna act on that thought like really quickly. Funny, as I'm saying that, I'm like, wow, I feel like that can be taken so out of context. But but if I have like an exciting business thought, like it let's say I have this idea, let's say I'm like, this would be such a good idea for a reel. Then I'm like, it's like an itch I have to scratch. Like I have to film that reel and post it. Like I it's it doesn't, I don't feel satisfied until I do that. And so it helps propel me forward because it's like

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara: living in me. Another idea, another thing is like, I have this idea. Well, it's been it's been baking for a while, but I was reminded last week like it would be great if we could start groups in schools, not just like in our private practice, but actually propose to schools to run groups in the schools itself. Like I don't know anything about doing that.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Sara: But it would be cool. And I have a colleague it who I know through like the group therapy world in Kentucky who does this in private schools. So I reached out to him and I was like, Hey, can you come and give us a training about doing this? Like really walk us through how to propose this to schools and et cetera, et cetera. So and he's coming on Monday and I'm like paying him to come train us in doing this. And I don't know if it will work. I'm like putting it out there, like maybe we'll be able to do it. But it's something that I feel when I have an idea, I I just quickly act on it and get it done. And I'm lucky to have also like a great support like I've hired within my practice good administrative staff that can also help with some of these like executive functioning pieces that I do struggle with that are harder for me. So they have there's this idea of like every practice needs a visionary and and not just practice but businesses in general need a visionary and an implement and an sorry, a visionary and an integrator. I don't know, have you heard this term before?

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Uh-huh.

Sara: So like usually the visionary is like the CEO, who also usually is neurodivergent. So it go they go really well together because it's like we've just got all these great ideas, but we need someone to catch them and actually integrate them into our practice and it like make them actually happen. And so I've had I've from very early on in my practice have had admin who like have I've been able to be like, Hey, I have this idea. Can you like make it for me? And like then I have a web page about the thing. Or a flyer or, you know.

Julie Pernikoff: That's you did good hiring then. Like you were able to envision that so to speak and and that helped that's helped you. That's

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. I think I I have a really clear under like idea of of like what I need and what who I work well with. so that's been that's been helpful. But I and then like if I have let's say I'm giving a talk about something and I'm really excited about it, I'm gonna be so excited to make my PowerPoint. I sound like such a nerd, but like I sit down and I'm just so excited about it because it feels because because I can get into hyper focus about things that I'm really excited about. So back to like how does it mentally it's it's I think ADHD actually has been really helpful for that. I also experienced definitely I have some struggles with ADHD that make it a disorder. It's not just like a fun bonus for my brain, right? Like there is there it is also hard to have for a lot of other reasons. Like I'm completely time blind. I have no idea how much time things take. and no idea how long it'll take me to do errands or do like and and I can't I have really poor executive functioning skills for like outside tasks. like r making returns for things that are not very easy to return.

Julie Pernikoff: Don't be too hard on yourself about

Sara: Yeah, or like multi step one time I posted on Instagram, I was like, I can't do returns. Like, I'm sure everyone gets it. And like nobody got it. Everyone's like, Sarah, you just take it to the UPS store. I'm like, there's like three other steps needed before that. Like, if it was only what?

Julie Pernikoff: There's several steps and it's very annoying. Yeah. It's there's several steps and it's very annoying to do it. So

Sara: Yeah. So anything that takes like more than two steps is very hard for me. Like if I need to fill something out on my computer, then print it, then mail it, forget it. I'm not mailing anything. And I don't order things online if I know I might need to return it because I'm not gonna return it. And then I'm gonna feel so guilty about this thing I own that doesn't fit me because I couldn't return it. So, you know, anyways.

Julie Pernikoff: it's interesting though to me because I view you as like from my perspective, you know, knowing you over the time that we've known each other, I do see you as a visionary, but I also see you as incredibly practical and like very much able to execute tasks. like, you know, we're able in many situations to function and like do what we need to do. And I think you still really like you really get it done though. which

Sara: Yeah, I think I could. And I and I know where to get help and support. So it's funny, like people will say things to me like, you must have so much help, like with your kids, because I have all these businesses. And I'm like, I actually don't have any help with my kids, but I have a lot of help with my businesses. or they'll ask me like how like you must have childcare

Julie Pernikoff: Like do you

Sara: And like I don't have we don't have any like parents who live nearby either. so it's all on us, but first of all, my husband is very involved and he, you know, he's he comes home kind of late, but it wasn't always like that. So when they were younger, he was working from home. So that was really helpful. He's also really good at executive functioning. So I will literally, if I have like things I need to take care of that involve multi-step processes like mailing things, like I ask him to do that for me. I'll sign what I need to sign and he takes care of mailing it for me. So that's been so that like I can ask him about some stuff like that. And then also on top of that, like I have like I've always had an administrative assistant in my practice that can help me with like all these little things in the practice that need to get done.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm.

Sara: And I have cleaning help three times a week, which whenever I tell people that, they're always like mind blown. I love having a clean house. It can help me think and function so much better. I hate cleaning, hate it, don't want to do it. And so I have the most amazing person who's like the best thing that ever happened to me. And she cleans my house. Shout out to Margarita. I love her. She's actually gonna be cleaning my she cleans office also now.

Julie Pernikoff: your list of copies. That's awesome. great.

Sara: Yeah, she's fast.

Julie Pernikoff: It's great. You really know like where to delegate but then also pull at your skills in different areas. it's awesome. you are very transparent about the financials and about like, you know, the drive to make money, support your family, support your life.

Sara: Yeah, delegate. yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: why are you so transparent and talk to us just a little bit about that

Sara: I am such a big believer in women, especially Orthodox Jewish women, being able to be their own boss, to make a lot of money, to feel empowered. and so I want to be able to talk about things, to talk about numbers transparently to show like you could do it too. And so I think that that for me, like that feels really in line with my values. as someone who like I love teaching therapists how to start groups because A, I love groups. I think that clinically they're amazing, but you can also make more money doing them. And so I want people to make more money because then they're gonna have a better life. And like I know money doesn't buy happiness, but like it can buy you access to things that can make you happy. And it can make you less stressed, you know? And if you're less stressed and you're a mom, like you'll have more energy for your kids.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.

Sara: And then also like within my practice itself, my group practice, like all the therapists who recruit me know, like it's an awful business model, but like I want them to go out on their own when they're ready. And like I also if they want to stay with me forever, that is I am happy for that for them to do that too. And I probably from a business point of view want that even more. But I I want to support them in their journeys of going out, getting your LCSW, starting your own practice, being successful. Like I want that for people because it's so amazing and it's so freeing. And so I don't and and in their contracts, it literally says, like when your contract ends, I want like you can go out on your own and take your clients with you, et cetera, et cetera. Like I spell it out for them because I want them to be able to.

Julie Pernikoff: Unique stuff.

Sara: Yeah, like I mean I want them to be able to exit through the front door. You know what I mean? Like I don't you know, so it's not a great business. thank you. I appreciate it. I don't want them to Yeah, I want it to feel good, you know. and like it's yeah when when

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Just got chills. You're a really great you're great, Sarah. You're a great boss also. Yeah.

Sara: people leave, it does. Like the practice does take a hit. But I think also for me, like I've been able to set it up in a way that my other bit my other practi like I have enough income that I don't need to rely on just my group practice. and on top of that, I also don't feel like

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Sara: I I really believe, first of all, I have a lot of faith in Hashem, in God, and that I really believe that like He is in charge of how much money we make. And on top of that, I also think that when I'm living, when I'm doing something that feels values aligned, like saying you can leave, you can take your clients with you, like, you know, wishing you well, so excited to like literally give you the gift of like helping you start your own practice that it'll come back to me. You know, like that it's not, I'm not gonna be like suffering because of that, you know?

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. that's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I'm so glad I asked that and that we landed on that. so to go back to Nazi, to go back to your kids and your family life, how do you partner together to to build all of this and to maintain all of this? It's unbelievable.

Sara: So Thanks. how do we partner together to Yeah, I'm like thinking about like, what is all of this? There's so many pieces. well he also has a job. He also works. well, I think like to tie us into the money or to bring us back like to the money conversation.

Julie Pernikoff: How do work together? Yeah. Yeah, I actually wasn't thinking about that. I don't know I wasn't asking in that way, but feel free, please. Part of the equation.

Sara: No, no, no. But but like something really so like part of our story is that we met an undergrad and so we got married when we were still an undergrad. And so we know also what it's like to be really poor and have like no money and really hustle. And thank God we weren't when I say like really poor, we ha our parents we were able to rely like to to lean on our parents if we needed if needed it. they wouldn't like let us be homeless. But they said you're getting married at twenty one. Like you're you're adults. Like we will you're still in undergrad, so we know you can't have jobs. So we will help with your rent and we'll give you a little bit of money towards your groceries. But other than that, like, you know, figure it out. which honestly was like how it was when I was in before I got married, like in the dorms. Like I didn't have like unlimited funds to buy whatever I wanted. I worked. I had part-time jobs always. So we still we had part-time jobs. but I think like being where we are now but having come from where we came from, which was we both worked like three jobs between the two of us. like three part-time jobs like during undergrad and grad school. I think there's like a big appreciation for how hard we've worked. to get to where we are now where we feel like we're in a good place financially. And like his first job out of grad school was he's an accountant. Like they don't make a lot of money out of grad school. They really don't. he made like actually I don't remember. I wanna say like low sixties as his first job. but I can't remember if that's if it was yeah, it was maybe like that or maybe even it was like yeah, I think it was low sixties. And then my first job out of grad school, I made 55k. and then at that point, like we had jobs, but once he started working, our we were totally not like the no family help at all. So we really, we really needed to be very mindful and careful about, you know, how we were budgeting and our expenses and all of that. And then we had a baby, you know, which takes a ton of resources. I think I probably paid a nanny the same amount that I took home after taxes, but I knew I was investing in my career by doing that because I was I knew one day I'd be able to make a lot more than what I'd be paying somebody to watch my children. You know, so for me it did feel like actually a financial investment or a business investment, I guess. But but I think like we've always been very aware of you know

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sara: my job has less of a ceiling, I can be a more creative and I can like once I got out of the, you know, once I went out on my own, I was able to create opportunities for more income where he really couldn't. So I was very supportive of his like progression through the ranks at his firm that he was at. and now where he's now he's been working for 10 years at this point,

Julie Pernikoff: Was it?

Sara: He has a different job. He's switched jobs and he's we're moving and he's able to keep his job in Israel. And I'm gonna be seeing very f like still like my very small caseload and all of the group stuff. Like I'm just pausing until I figure out kind of what my schedule is gonna look like. And I still have the group practice, but again, like I'm not totally sure, you know, what how it'll look financially on my end, like how much I'll be bringing in. But so from the money piece, sorry, that was like super technical. But from the money piece, it does feel really good to be able to like ha have had all this history with each other where it's like I can like, you know, there's times where I was at there but right when I went into private practice, I think I was making at least double his income. and then he

Julie Pernikoff: Right. Yeah.

Sara: And then, you know, eventually it kind of like evened out that we were sort of, you know, kinda more comparable. And we were getting a lot of health, you know, health insurance and other benefits from him. So it wasn't like just money, but

Julie Pernikoff: That's massive, by the way, the health insurance. That's a part of the equation. Yeah.

Sara: Yeah. totally. yeah. It was like a twenty thousand dollar benefit. A hundred percent. So, so helpful. but yeah, so I think like just from like the emotional support piece and like the find like understanding each other's careers and really supporting each other in that way has been really amazing. And like he's been so supportive of my career from the beginning. And like I think I I made there's this post I I made on Instagram that was pretty popular where I said like person I just met, like, what do you do for work? And I say, I'm a social worker. And then I'm like, my husband, no, she's a businesswoman. You know, like something like that. Like I he's always been very proud of me. and and then with like the kids stuff, you know, we really share a lot of we sh we, you know, he's copied on every we're both we copy each other on every email for the kids. He's the the person that the school has to call first, like not me, because I'm in sessions usually. So he has more availability to pick up the phone. So they know like he's the first phone call. and just in general, like our roles, we don't really fall into the stereotypical gender roles. he makes Jabus every week, right? Like he does a lot of the cooking and gro he does all the pretty much all the grocery shopping. yuntiv, like holiday we

Julie Pernikoff: Mm.

Sara: It's like whole other episode. But like he makes basically every every y holiday, Jewish holiday, we're home for pretty much. And he and we host usually like out of town guests. And he prep he makes all of it. He really and I I'll say, like, what can I make? Like, give me a list, give me some stuff, and I'll take on things to make. But he's in charge. Like, he runs the show in the in the kitchen. and

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Sara: kids appointments, it's really just based on one of our s like it's just our schedules, like who's available, like, you know, we have our kids have all sorts of stuff as kids do. And it's like, okay, who's available to to do, you know, to take, you know, to go to the dermatologist on, you know, in on this in this month and who's available to do this and that time and so it really feels like a partnership and a very equal parenting partnership, I would say. And then, you know, there when he was in accounting busy season. That's when I would step in and I would do a hundred percent of the parenting, basically, including Sundays, because we needed to. and then when he's not in busy season, that's when I'm able to step in or he's able to step in and then I can be a little busier with work. this past year he didn't have busy season because he switched jobs, but that was amazing. And so it was a whole year of like kind of like equal parenting, which was great. Gosh.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. we'll wrap up soon because we've we've really delved into it all. And what's your favorite part about being a mom?

Sara: I love watching the world through my kids' eyes. And as they get older and they're like real people with real thoughts and opinions and it's just so cool. It's so cool. And so that yeah, I would say that's my favorite part.

Julie Pernikoff: That's all nice. And and how do you feel about things moving forward you are soon also making a big transition, how do you how are you feeling about that? And what do you want to impart to us before we finish?

Sara: Yeah. I mean the move is completely like scary and terrifying and exciting and I think I'm mostly worried about my kids like and their acclimation and everyone's like, they'll be great. which like they probably will be, but as their mom it's my job to be worried about them.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Sara: And and I think like also my my own work, I'm kind of interested and excited to see what happens next. it almost feels like I'm preparing to have another baby with this move. It's like I'm gonna be having, you know, I'm talking to my clients about like taking a leave and like and then I'll come back and you know, like discussing that, which is interesting, and like putting the them on my calendar for September because I'm gonna be stopping to work in a few weeks. and and I know historically that when I'm off and I take time off, I come back like more creative and energized than ever. So I'm really, I'm really excited about like what this change will bring for me, like creatively and also just for our family. and to those listening, he said, What what did you ask me? What do I have to impart? What do I want to share?

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. I mean I wanted you to share with us like how you're feeling about the move and then and then yeah, what do you want to impart? What do you want to to share with us? We can we could really talk for a long time, but this is we've we've really done it. This is you know, it's over an hour. I don't wanna I don't wanna do too long either. But I know.

Sara: my god, we could talk forever. You could split it into you're gonna have to edit this down. Yeah, I don't I I think just, you know, I think the thing I you know this is a podcast about motherhood, right? And it is really motherhood is crazy. And I think like There are so many times during the week where I'm like, I'll say something and I'll be like, wow, I never never thought that would come out of my mouth. You know, when things like don't like your sister's hair, like or whatever, I don't even know what it's just always such, you know, and and so much delight. Like my kids say things that I'm just delighted at. Like they're just hilarious. My Judah, my middle one, is like, he says such funny things. all the time like he's not trying to be funny it's just how he talks and I think that I guess the thing I want to impart is like wait I have a really good thing to impart okay you'll you'll edit you'll edit

Julie Pernikoff: Honestly, say it all. Like if anyone wants to listen to the whole thing, listen to the whole thing. If they don't, they don't. I wanna hear it so

Sara: Okay, okay, okay. So I heard this person talk when I was in Stern. Like in or yeah, I was really like in in undergrad still. I heard someone talk about like we always want to get through everything. Like everyone's like, I just want to get through the holidays. I just want to get through the whatever, you know, the the hugging. I just want to get through the bar mitzvah. I just want you know, she's like, and we're so busy trying to get through all the time that we're not living in. And I that really stuck with me. I actually talk about that a lot with my individual clients, like that idea. because it's really about mindfulness and about slowing down and about not just rushing to get through to the next chapter, but being able to just slow down and enjoy. And it doesn't have to be enjoying, right? It doesn't have to feel good, but like appreciating that you're in that. And I remember thinking about it one time when I was like really in the thick of motherhood. I had a two and a half year old and like a six month old and I was vacuuming our carpet. We were living in a a the basement apartment. Remember that apartment in Queens, right? We're living in this basement apartment. We're saving money to move here. And I was vacuuming the rug and while I was doing that, I was holding my I was holding Judah who's a baby and Ezie was on my leg, hold like holding onto my leg like a koala bear. And I'm like vacuuming with like so overstimulated. And I remember thinking back to that moment with that that woman, and I was like, I I could feel really overwhelmed, but I also like this is motherhood. Like I'm in this right now, and it is hard, and it's supposed to be hard, and it will not be like this forever. And I can tell you now, like my youngest is almost three. And I do feel and my oldest is eight. And I feel like so like it's slipping away already, you know? Those it's crazy. And and I know like you got your she how old is your baby? Like one? Not yeah, not even one, right? Like it it's it's so like and it's you know, it's the first year I feel like it's so hard. There's so many different things, but you do end up having it just it just flies by and like

Julie Pernikoff: Nine months. Nine months.

Sara: As he likes to put himself to sleep now. Like, of course, like I go, you know, I say goodnight and everything, but he gets into he's Can I read? I'm like, of course you can go read, you know? And he gets into his bed and he reads. And then sometimes he falls asleep while reading, and I don't even get to say goodnight to him. So cute. But also, it's like he's a really he's old. He's like his own person who lies in bed and reads. Like, when did he get to be that old? So

Julie Pernikoff: Cute. You like to read too. He likes to read like you.

Sara: I do, I do. I love I love seeing my kids be similar to me. Yeah. But that's but yeah, I guess that's like the advice I wanna I wanna impart is like when it feels hard, it is hard and it's okay to like slow yourself down and just be like, I'm just in this right now and it will not be like this forever. And it's okay, it's okay to like acknowledge that it feels hard.

Julie Pernikoff: Circle.

Sara: And to think about like the parts of it that are maybe that are more that are not as hard. You know, like when my kids are being so crazy and loud, like I'll sometimes I'll just pause myself and look at them and be like, They're so cute. They're so little. Like one day they're gonna be teenagers and not gonna wanna hug me anymore. Like when they're all jumping on top of me or like asking for extra hugs and I'm so touched out. I'm like imagining them as like a twenty year old. I'm like, they're not gonna wanna hug me. Maybe they will at that point again. But like just it helps. It helps keep that perspective of like, you know, the the they what do they say? The days are long, but the years are short.

Julie Pernikoff: Chills. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you. So beautiful. This was amazing. This was really, really what'd you say?

Sara: Thanks for having me. Said thanks for having me. Such an honor to be on.

Julie Pernikoff: pleasure. No, it's really it's an honor to have you and I've learned so much from having you on and I'm so excited for people to hear this. I know you I you know traditionally ask how can people read you but I'm gonna I'll put it all in the show notes. and I wish you so much mazel and bracha and simcha and just like Everything should just go well with the move Mirzashem and really like you're doing something that so many of us really look up to. And Hashem should just give you guys Koach and and thank you for doing it because it's important. So yeah. Yeah. My pleasure. It was awesome to have you on. Thank you for being here.

Sara: Thank you. Thank you so much. Hm, thanks, Julie. Yeah, you're welcome.