Ruthie Pollak on Living with Grief and Keeping the Memory of Her Beloved Son, Ezra a"h, Alive

Julie Pernikoff: Welcome to Into Motherhood.

Ruthie: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Julie Pernikoff: Absolutely. My pleasure. So Ruthie, talk to us about who you are and where you're from, your parents' sibling makeup, and where are you in the mix?

Ruthie: so I am originally from Sharon, Massachusetts. I now live in New Jersey. I am the second out of four kids. So I have an older brother, a younger sister, and a younger brother.

Julie Pernikoff: and and what do you do for work?

Ruthie: I work for the American Lung Association. I have a master's in public administration with a focus on healthcare and I do health promotion. specifically in the tobacco cessation and helping people quit smoking and tobacco use.

Julie Pernikoff: Ruthie, that is so cool. I did not know that. Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that with us. That's wonderful. we're gonna be talking about some heavy things tonight. And tonight is very important Ezra's yard site. And if you could tell us your family makeup.

Ruthie: So that's always a very tough question because I want to just say I have five boys, but it is very hard to feel that way all the time because yes, I did give birth to five boys, but I'm not raising five because Ezra passed away four years ago today. So whenever anybody asks me, it's always difficult to answer that question. It depends who's asking. If it's somebody who will never find out, I will just say I have four boys. And then like, wow, that must be so crazy. And then I just, you know, put on that smile, fake smile and say, Yeah, it's so crazy at my house, not just because also we're going through grief. I even remember one time right after it happened, shortly after when when my third son was born, and I was with my older son in Kiva, and we were somewhere, and someone said, is this are these the only two kids you have? And I Yes. And the guy got off the elevator and Kiva said, How come you didn't mention Ezra? And I was like, Because it's a stranger and I'm not just gonna start saying, Well, I also have a son who died and, you know, make it very awkward. so it's it's a very tough question and sometimes I prefer answering people who will never find out because then I can just outright say I have five boys.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. And now well, now you also you just had a baby. You you like you even

Ruthie: Yes, I did. three weeks ago.

Julie Pernikoff: you jumped back and forth a little, you you have four, but now you now you really have five. You you had another baby.

Ruthie: Yeah. I did, yes.

Julie Pernikoff: how are you doing physically and you know, emotionally postpartum?

Ruthie: great because I'm so happy not to be pregnant. It has been so hot lately and just very happy to be done.

Julie Pernikoff: Nice.

Ruthie: also I have very energetic boys, so to be able to run after them is great. emotionally it's been it's been a little rough. It's been up and down. summers in general are just hard for me now. So having a baby in the summer sometimes gives me that excuse to just let it be whatever I'm feeling. And but I when my kids are around, which is gonna be a huge thing you're gonna hear a lot, when my kids are around, I'm I'm fine. Like it's they are what get me through everything.

Julie Pernikoff: so just to clarify then, list us your kids. And include Ezra in that, obviously.

Ruthie: So Akiva is nine, Ezra would have been six, Ellie is three, Noam is turning two actually on Shabbos, and Yair is three weeks old.

Julie Pernikoff: When was yair born

Ruthie: On July nineteenth.

Julie Pernikoff: Mozzle Dove. And

Ruthie: Thank you.

Julie Pernikoff: amazing. So Ruthie, I'll I'll say from my perspective, sitting here on the other side of the screen, that it's it's hard to know what to say and it's hard to know what not to say. So as we start this conversation, as we open it up and talk about some things that could potentially be Very challenging for some people to hear, but also very important, I think, for people to hear. Tell me a little bit about, some do's and don'ts of what people can say or shouldn't say, and that'll apply to me tonight also.

Ruthie: So one thing I do wanna say is everybody's different. everybody going through this, and this is what I have found, everyone going through it is different. And to you really have to follow what the person wants. So for me personally, there really the only wrong thing you can say to me is you should be over it already. That's basically the only thing. Or saying that, well, I went through this and you went through that, and so my pain is worse because That's not true. I mean, somebody could lose a pet and that's the worst pain in their life. And to me, that's that's nothing, but I'm not gonna belittle their grief. So those to me, those are the only two things that are really you shouldn't say. Like people have given advice, they've said you should talk to this person, you should talk to that. And who I am personally, no, I don't want to talk to that person. They didn't go through the same things as me. They didn't, you know, struggle. They didn't have a miscarriage before having this child and then going through COVID and then losing the child. It's not the same. It just because they also lost their child doesn't mean it's the same as the way I lost mine. but it just personally that bothers me. But s you can still tell somebody. You can still say it's I'm still okay with people telling me those things, but not forcing it on me. So that's another thing is I guess the third

Julie Pernikoff: Mm.

Ruthie: thing. Not forcing me to do anything, like forcing me to talk to somebody who's going through something because it might not be the same and it might not be a and it might actually be a really bad time for me to talk to somebody.

Julie Pernikoff: Have people tried to force you to talk to people?

Ruthie: Yeah. i in the most meaningful way and in the most trying to be helpful, like, you know, you you have gone through this and so has my friend and you should really reach out to this person. Or somebody told me I should make sure I'm doing marriage counseling. And I know we're gonna talk about this later, but I was like really wanted to say to them, okay, my marriage is actually stronger, not, you know, so Don't compare whatever you're going through with what I'm going through because it is very different.

Julie Pernikoff: in terms of like, how we see this conversation going tonight, I might have my own idea, but I wanna know what your idea is of how tonight could go and how the conversation could go. And what you hope for it

Ruthie: What I hope is that people understand mothers who are grieving, but also taking care of children that are either that knew knew the other child or have didn't never got to meet them. and and making sure that that child lives on in the family and how that works. I th I see myself as kind of like parenting very differently. like I parent Akiva who knew Ezra, who was it it was he was his best friend. And so dealing with that loss and that trauma and the anxiety and all of that, but then also making sure that Ezra is alive in our lives and that his younger three brothers know him. And that now Ellie will look at pictures and say, that's Ezra. And that took some time to, you know, get him to to do that. But just I guess discussing how I How that that's my life and that's how I have to parent my kids and how I have to keep Ezra in our lives.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Wow. and in general, just like throughout the conversation, do you what do you find to be most supportive? Like when you're telling over your story to people? do you prefer to share things and then people to be like, that's interesting. Like I went through X, Y, and Z, what do you find to be the most supportive

Ruthie: Yeah, I don't find it to be supportive, but I also don't mind it. I I understand that everybody goes through things and I also undersa you know, that's also sometimes how you relate to to people, but that doesn't always mean I could be supportive to you. I you know, people have reached out and I guess understanding that not every situ as I said before, not every situation is the same, but like I also understand that's is how people connect, you know, by shared trauma, by shared, you know, going through anything. I and I actually do it to other people as well. Like if somebody is saying, like one of my friends is getting divorced and she's talking about her kids and I'm trying to connect with her, and it's like it's not the same trauma, but it's also trauma. So in my head it seems the same. So like I'm also doing it from my perspective where it doesn't bother me when people say that. It's not comforting, but it doesn't bother me.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Ruthie: another thing actually that you made me think of was something I really didn't like was when anybody said, Hashem only gives you what you can handle, or you'll see the light through it, or you know that good will come from him. It's a whole like separate topic, which my relationship with Hashem and how I'm feeling with that. But I know people were trying to put the positive in because there's nothing else you can do and that actually really bothered me because I didn't and I didn't and I still don't wanna see the positive.

Julie Pernikoff: And I think you're entitled to that. But that's I'm just like dumbfounded a little bit. I'm not like so

Ruthie: What's

Julie Pernikoff: like amazing and know what to do. But like I just feel like there's certain things that you just know not to say. I'm like shocked.

Ruthie: Yeah, you would think so, but people really just they mean they mean well. They do. But they just

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Yeah, they do they do.

Ruthie: they really do. Like it and that's why I'm I'm No, but and that's why yeah, and that's why I'm

Julie Pernikoff: I'm o I'm saying that from my perspective, my own experiences. Like I think people mean well. That's all. Like

Ruthie: okay with it with what people are saying, because they are like people don't like to see other people in pain and they just like even my closest friends, they just want to take it away from me. And so They want to do whatever they can to. And I have learned from myself and through I mean through years of therapy from before this, like just in general, and through this, that it's okay to live in pain and it's okay to live in in the hard stuff. And that makes that makes people uncomfortable. And so they they are trying to take it away, but you can't. Nobody can take my pain away. Nobody can make it better. So I've accepted that and that's why I'm okay with whatever people say, like. I can just ignore it if I have to.

Julie Pernikoff: I don't know what it is. I think that sometimes it feels like it's almost like I can handle my own pain, but I can't handle the fact that someone I know and care about is going through something so painful. Yeah, I don't

Ruthie: Mm-hmm. yes. I mean I've that

Julie Pernikoff: know.

Ruthie: exactly. Whenever anybody is going through something, it's like I can't believe you have to go through that. Even even if it's incomparable to mine, even if it's anything, it's like I right. It's very true. It's much it's much harder to see somebody else going through it.

Julie Pernikoff: So and I think it's pr it's like unbearable for people to see what you're going through and what you went through. And

Ruthie: Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: like, so then enter the scene comments that are like, my God. But I guess people really are are at a loss. It really doesn't excuse certain things, but people do have good intentions. But

Ruthie: Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: I don't know. Maybe they'll learn from this experience also, even as I am right now, honestly. just asking you questions. Sometimes it does take bravery though.

Ruthie: It and there are some people who either have the training in it, like I, you know, who have training in psychology or anything that that know what to do. Some and I like I've noticed like there's groups of people and there's some people who just went out of their way to look into how to deal, like listen to podcasts or, you know, try to figure out what to say. And I really think the biggest thing and I I learned this myself, again, talking to a therapist, is that I don't have to meet people at their level, they have to come to my level. And everyone has to be okay with that. And that has helped me a lot. And I think that's important for everyone to hear also that if you have to like let the other person lead There were times like after the first year that there were a lot of things that are triggering. And I felt that I couldn't be myself and couldn't be in that place. of feeling sad about things, and nobody ever said this to me. This was my own thinking was that people expect me to just like move on already and be done and be ready to go hang out and to go to meals and to do all of this stuff. And that's when I learned that I have to bring people into my level. And that's actually when I started my Substack 'cause it was my way of I started to post first on Facebook and Instagram because I wanted people to know that things that are happening in the outside world are triggering to me. You know, first day of school, seeing kids who were would be his age growing up and all of that. And so that people understand that I'm not gonna be myself during those times. And that helped me. And I think it also helped people reading it because I have noticed a shift in that. That, you know, instead of like expecting people to remember, okay, this is a family gathering, you know, this is like a family holiday. Everyone reach out to me. Now I write it and I and then people are like, I I I I read what you wrote and I understand this is a very hard time.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. So you've seen a shift even just from starting that.

Ruthie: Yes. Yeah, I have. And I've seen a shift in myself also because I didn't really expect everyone to remember, even for the Uritsite now. Like even my sister, who is my best friend who remembers everything, she she said to me, She's like, I don't remember the Hebrew date. And I'm like, I actually never expected anyone to remember the Hebrew date. But once I say it, then I hope that people reach out. so stuff like that. Like people know it's usually the end of the summer, but with the year it's like it n this the coming year is a leap year, which means that everything is pushed up earlier. So like it happens to be today at yeah, as opposed to the English

Julie Pernikoff: That's why Yeah.

Ruthie: date is August twenty fifth. So like it's you know, it's a hard time to remember, yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah, yeah. So I, I like am in your circles. I you know, we are friends through friends, whatever it is. So I knew about what happened when it happened. For those who are listening now and may not know, do you mind if you can just go through the history of what happened, including logistical details and whatnot? like where, you know, the where, when, how, and we'll just listen.

Ruthie: So I'm gonna start first with when he was born. Ezra was born in April twenty twenty, so right in the height of COVID. it was a crazy time with I remember I was texting one of my friends who ha that her son ended up being coming best friends with Ezra and still to the talks about him as his best friend, which is amazing. texting like like, what have you heard from your LB? Our husband's allowed in the hospital, like back and forth, all you know, do we need to wear masks when giving birth? Like it was a very crazy time. So He was born and then it was a lot like his brisk was just us and the mohel and Akiva and like looking back, even though I'm not ready and really

Julie Pernikoff: Wow.

Ruthie: at the point to see all of the stuff that Hashem gave us, and then like clearly we had a lot of time just us, because we were not we couldn't see anybody, so we spent a lot of time together. So yeah, so he was born then, and then he was actually home with me for the first year because I ended up losing my job. So which again worked out because spent a lot of time with him. And then he was never really like a sick kid. He was just just like Akiva was, you know, got sick from school, got sick from things and then he he would get better. so when he was two, we went So that summer, there's always been two weeks at the end of the summer in between camp and school and we always try and find something to do. So we decided we're gonna go to the Bahamas because it was a pretty close flight. I was seven months pregnant and we went with Tawny's brother and so my brother in law and sister in law, and we decided it'll be like their thirtieth birthday par birthday trip and we were gonna have a lot of fun. So we went to the Bahamas And Ezra was not feeling so well on the plane. but again, I was just like, okay, it's a low fever. He's he'll be he'll be fine. Kids get sick, they get better, they'll be fine. So we were on this vacation, we were having fun. He just kept sleeping, and I was actually getting me really annoyed that he wasn't a part of the pictures and wasn't doing anything. And I was like, Okay, it'll be like we'll we'll take pictures of him anyway, feeling sick, and like we'll make I I used to make albums a lot, like a lot of like pictures, like memories and all of that. And I'm like, this will be like a funny trip picture. Like, yeah, and remember Ezra was sick the whole time and it's funny. He then so that so we got there on Sunday and then again like he wasn't feeling well he would didn't want to do really anything. And then on Tuesday, so again, he still wasn't feeling well. We have this picture. We went like he actually like felt better for a minute and came into the Infinity pool with us, and we have a really nice family picture from that pool, and like he has a huge smile on his face. And then Wednesday he his fever just never went away and his he was breathing funny. so there there was a doctor on at the resort, so I took him to the doctor there and they said you need to really take him to the hospital. I couldn't take him because I'd have to take the car seat and take everything. So Tani took him to the hospital. and It'd be interesting to hear Tani's side of it, 'cause we went this is one part where we went through very different experiences. I was with Akiva the whole time, like trying to distract him, trying to he he knew Ezra was sick and he knew he went to the hospital, but like I you know, he I still had to take care of him. And the they they finally got all these tests done and they said, Okay, it's pneumonia. And he needs so we decided they're like we should admit it was a back and forth between should they admit him, should they not admit him and we decided we're gonna take him to Miami. so Hatsala tried to get involved and tried to get a plane and tried to get someone to come take him. And then things just went south. he was getting better, then he wasn't getting better. And then Wednesday night, like Tani I heard them in the background saying, like, they're doing compressions. He was on the phone with me. I honestly can't remember every detail because I just I can't remember what happened, like, in between and all of that. And so I calling my brother-in-law who was in the hotel and I said, Can somebody come to stay with Akiva? Because I have to go to the hospital. So my brother-in-law took one with me to the hospital and I got there and they were doing compressions on Ezra. And because I know like I was an EMT and I know medical stuff, it was actually like I heard the words coming out of my mouth saying to them, just keep going, even though I knew I knew it was too late. I knew he was down for too long and there was just no He would have been brain dead if they kept going and and so he died early early like Thursday morning. it was hard that it was in the Bahamas for so many reasons, but It's still like what would have been different if it was in America and if it was here. And one thing that I've held on to, which has been both a comfort and not a comfort, is that whatever was gonna happen was gonna happen. it's not up to me. It's up to Hashem. And he decided that Ezra was gonna die, and that is something that people have said, like, we gave him the best life, and he died his happiest. And in a plate like he was not sick for so long. and that he died the happiest, you know, that we gave him a good a good time, I guess. and then I went so actually they wouldn't let me go back to the I it just it was a very not an interesting feeling, but I was like I wanted to be there with him, but also I just needed to get back to Akiva and I needed to just hold him. And they wouldn't let me go back by myself. So they had the There was an anesthesia. There are actually some really amazing Hatsala people who were there. There was one who was a patric anesthesiologist, and like there was nothing they could do, but they switched off doing compressions just so that they can help. And so one of them took me back to the hotel. And Akiva woke up the next morning and like really were he's like, Where's Ezra? Where is he? And I had to tell him that his best friend died. And it was the hardest thing I've ever done. but thankfully actually my aunt and uncle were there also. And my cousins were there, and they took him to the water park for the day while we tried to figure everything out. And I still like I I wanna ask him, but I've I never will. Like, how did that make him feel when he woke up so scared and when I had to tell him that? And then I actually found out a lot of stuff afterwards. about the logistics of everything. I I guess it made sense, like, that they would want to do an autopsy, that they would want to figure out what happened. And I know halakhically it's you really it's really hard. You r there's very s few reasons when you can do an autopsy. And they were trying to get him out. So we actually had the flight, we had our flight already, to leave and then They it ended up being that they some of Tani's friends got a plane and got Ezra and actually Rabbi Blooming, who was the Chabad rabbi in the Bahamas, happened to be in New York at that time for his I think it was his sister's or his brother's wedding, and ended up flying back and that was the first time we met him. So he and he talked to the government, talked to everybody there to stop the autopsy and They were able to release Ezra. we weren't sure. That was also like the whole thing. We weren't sure when he was gonna come back, where when we could do the funeral, when we could do anything. And another really hard thing was we got to the airport and they're like, You have four tickets. And we're like, Yes, we know. They're like, Well, where's the other one? And I outrageous said to them, he's dead. And then just turned around. I was like, because they just kept pushing to say, and they're like, we want to just cancel the ticket. We don't need the ticket. They're like, but you have the fourth ticket. We're like, we understand we don't want it. and then the so Rabbi Blooming and my aunt stayed with Ezra on the plane and I find afterwards my aunt told me this that Rabbi Blooming just sang the whole time and you know he was asked what did you sing and he said he sang Hamalach because he has twin boys who are the same age and like that's what he would have done to them and Now now that song is very triggering to me because, you know, it's a very meaningful song. and then he so they we got back like Friday. We got back Thursday night and then Ezric got back with you know, Friday. and then he was buried in New York on Sunday because there was Toddy's family had a plot in Queens that he was buried in. And then right now but now he's in Israel, which is a separate part of why we moved him there, but he's he's in Israel now. Actually I could go into that. We moved him because so We moved him a year after. and it would there were a few things that caused this. He was we could not have been part of any process of any thought or anything of where he was gonna be buried. We he just needed to be we we just needed that part to be over. And then a few months later, unfortunately friends of ours, their daughter passed away and they moved her to Israel and they said, Well, she's starting our She's starting, she's the first step to our our Aliyah process. So that like got us thinking about a forever like forever home. And then I had heard also about somebody else who, and again, this is not for me to judge them. This is just something I would never do, but they moved from like one state in the United States to another state and moved their child with them. And I was like, the thought of doing that you know, of moving from place to place. And the only place I could ever think of that would be final is Israel. So whether or not we make Aliyah, I mean, we are every day hoping to, but you know, we don't know if that's gonna happen. But that's that's the only place we could see always living and always having him and starting that process. and then also he happens he's near my my grandparents. so he gets we we are actually very fortunate to have a lot of We don't have family in well, Tanya has family in Israel. I don't have family in Israel, but I have very close friends who will t like this is again people who just never went through this, never thought to do this. But when Yir was born, one of my best friends went and sat with Ezra to tell him that he has a new brother. And it's like w Israel is the place where people do that. And we actually

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Ruthie: when we moved him in Israel, this was right before October seventh. And as soon as we landed I was like to Tanya, I'm like, I actually feel so at home here because this is a country where people live with happiness and grief at the same time. And they know how to do it and they know how to keep going. And actually, we went, I went to get this necklace with all the kids' names on it. And I'm just talking to the guy in the store. And now he and then he's telling me, he doesn't, you know, he says, once I got the necklace, he's don't you like the lettering? I Yes, especially this one, because you know, he passed away and It's very meaningful. And he said, well, my grandson just died and my daughter's not doing so well. And like we had a whole conversation about it. And this is a guy on Ben Yehuda who works, it's his story's and he's like, he's a really amazing person. And just like that. And then and then he ends with giving me a bracha that, you know, I sh there's more room for more kids. There's you could always see, you know, he and so that's so every time. So we've now gone to Israel to We haven't been able to go for the yard site 'cause I've had two kids in August. But every time we go like that's we feel at home. We feel he's there and he's in the right place right now. surrounded, yeah, by people.

Julie Pernikoff: Thank you for sharing all of that. if it's okay, if we can go back to a couple like logistical questions. when did the Hutsala people get there? And then cause all this it sounds like all of a sudden they were just available and like present. and then also how did it turn f I mean, maybe you don't know, I don't know, but like because you said some of the details are like you found out it later, but how how did it turn from him going to the hospital to then it sounds it just jumped to compressions?

Ruthie: Yeah, so Tani was on the phone with Hutsalah probably from the second that Ezra got to the hospital They had a plane, it was like a lot of logistics and they had everyone available and got them to the Bahamas, but then it was too late anyway. so that's the second question that you asked is part of my It's really hard. I don't know. I have no idea what happened. Nobody knows what happened. I have sent the paperwork to my mom's pediatrician. I sent it she was on the phone with Tani the whole time. She asked her partners. I've asked our pediatrician. They've looked at everything. Nobody knows. We have no idea wh how it went so wrong so fast. And they said it was pneumonia, but he also had RSV and he also had all these overwhelming infections. So that's basically what we think was just an overwhelming infection. but that has actually made things harder now with my other kids because we don't know what happened. and like we did we haven't told Akiva that it was pneumonia, because Akiva has gotten pneumonia now twice. And we couldn't tell him that that's what Ezra died from. And now we've taken all the kids to an immunologist just To try and cover everything, but we have no idea what happened.

Julie Pernikoff: What what is that like for you and and Tani and for your mom? The fact that she's in medicine.

Ruthie: Yeah, it's very hard. She she has helped me a lot through it because she aside from being a my I'm an amazing mom, but she has helped me through the she said she has seen this, unfortunately, not often, but she's had this case before and where a perfectly healthy kid has just ended up with pneumonia and died. And if she really thinks that if we were in America, Ezra would've just been on life support and then eventually died and That that's I mean, that's what she saw at at Boston Children's Hospital, which is one of the best

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm.

Ruthie: children's hospitals in the country, so in the world. but it is hard. It's hard. I I still question like, is there something we missed? Is there something I could have done? Is there anything, you know, we could do for the other kids to figure out again, did we miss anything? Or was it just that he had some underlying thing that we didn't know about that it could have turned into something out like could have turned into a cancer that would have just, you know, made him suffer. It it's very hard. And I like I'm sometimes more of a black and white person. I like to know things and it's very hard not knowing. even I had mentioned October seventh that even I remember saying to someone like, I wonder if the parents who lost their kids fighting, not ne not necessarily in the in the Nova Massacre because that's different, but like so much fighting, it's they knew how their child died and they died for a reason. That was my thinking. So it felt like Ezra didn't die for a reason because he just got sick and died. You know, there's no like people coming and saying all these amazing stories about him or how he saved all these lives that I could see. So that did and sometimes Still does make it a little make it harder.

Julie Pernikoff: You're saying like it's you wonder if those parents in some ways have a little bit more comfort,

Ruthie: Yes. Because they can see the reason. and

Julie Pernikoff: in comparison. Yeah. Yeah.

Ruthie: I w I was like someone said to me, I don't think I don't think you would have it would have made a difference. I mean, it it might not have. But it's easier to look at other people and to see what they're going through and think maybe that's the same maybe maybe that would have helped me because being with so many questions is hard. and that's why I think everything is just there wasn't it helps me to just believe that everything is from Hashem and there's nothing I could have done. But then that also makes me incredibly angry at him. So it's a interesting balance.

Julie Pernikoff: If I could ask you about that, that is a very personal thing, but what is that like for your relationship with Hashem?

Ruthie: It is interesting. I have talked to some rabbis about this, I've talked to, you know, people about this, and they say that it means that my relationship with Hashem is very genuine because I am very vocal about how angry I am. I still like I used to the way also I was raised Not the way I was raised, but the way that like things I learned in school, you know, you have to make things a little bit more black and white. Like you do good, you get good, you do bad, you get bad. So it's like, well, what did I do to deserve this? so that was a big question a lot before. And I went through like a lot of things in my mind of what I could have done that made this happen. that was really in the beginning, but then hearing what other people had to say, hearing what rabbis had to say n about Powers, I guess, that it gave me. like I I I still have trouble dominat certain things. I have trouble, I have I don't ask Hashem for things because I felt like I asked every day for him to protect my kids and to watch over them. And I completely understand that my idea of protection might be different from his idea of protection. But I still but I I can't ask. I can't I just can't do it anymore. Like I used to light candles, now would be my time to divin for everybody. And I don't anymore. I just light. I mean I candle lighting is actually a little bit different because somebody one of the rabbis told me that it's the closest you get to Shemaiim. So like it's the one time that I have everybody and the one time I look at my candles and I have now five extra candles there and it like feels like everyone's there. But I don't I don't dive in then anymore. I don't ask for anything because I was let down and I that's what I feel. Like I was very let down. But on the other hand, I still I I completely don't understand why this had to happen. I understand that it did have to happen and that Hashem knows like that's what had to happen. and I do have I do believe in Hashem and I do believe he knows what's best, but I'm still incredibly angry and I don't say things like Bar Hashem anymore because I don't want to give him credit. Like I'm just angry. so that's you know, I don't Zavin on Rash Hashanah or Yom Kippur anymore, but I have also like I've talked to two rabbis again, I mentioned I talked to rabbis about this, and one of them said to me, Well, maybe your loss, maybe that means that you now have a direct line to Hashem for other. people not to lose their kids. And I was like, I actually could that meant a lot to me and I could dive. And so like when I see, you know, that there's someone asking to dive for their kid, like then I could say to Hillam for them because it's like maybe, maybe because I went through this, I can now say to Hashem, don't make anyone else go through the same thing. But it's it's hard. And it's hard actually also with raising kids in this community because I don't want to keep it to have my same thoughts. He actually once said to me, but we're angry at Hashem, right? And I was like, Well,

Julie Pernikoff: Wow.

Ruthie: I am, but you don't have to be, because like Tani and I both have very different like he has gone more into his Davening and learning and doing more things within Judaism, and I have not. I have gone not the o opposite way, but I used to I used to feel guilty a lot if I didn't do things. You know, if I didn't cover my hair enough, if I didn't wear like dress sneezely enough, if I didn't anything like that. and now not so much. And somebody actually once said to one of the rabbis said, if you're doing things out of guilt, then you're doing it wrong. I was like, That's so different from how I was taught in school. And

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm.

Ruthie: but that has helped me with my own. like questioning of things and I think it actually ended up in a backwards way, strengthened my relationship with HM because, you know, I'm no I'm not doing things anymore because I feel guilty about it.

Julie Pernikoff: Wow, a direct line. I mean, my like gut reaction that sounds like an unsupportive thing to say though. 'cause I'm kind of like, Well,

Ruthie: Right?

Julie Pernikoff: why is he trying to make I don't know. I could just but like what do I know?

Ruthie: So this I actually only spoke to this rabbi about a year after it happened. right away the things that people said during Shiva were mostly not helpful.

Julie Pernikoff: Okay.

Ruthie: it was somebody said maybe, you know I don't remember exactly. I honestly don't remember what people said, but I remember just thinking, like, whatever you're saying is not how I actually turned to one of the rap one of the rabbis I that I grew up with, like he was he's our family rabbi. I said, I was like, Why does HM do this? And he's like, I really can't answer that. And I'm like, How do you not know? and his wife was really funny and said, I ask him this all the time and I'm like, You're a rabbi, you should know this and he just

Julie Pernikoff: Well, she said she asks him that all the time.

Ruthie: sits there. She says she asked him, Yeah, she's like, You're a rabbi, you need to you should know this. And He he said, he doesn't, you know, there's no answer. And that was again very hard in the beginning. Now I I'm okay with sitting with that, there there's just nobody can answer that question. And instead of me asking all other people why, I actually turned to Hashem and say, like, why why did you do this? Why? Like this is horrible. We're going through this. Why why did you do this? but it took to afterwards, like The things I remember from Shiva that were helpful where somebody said, Maybe it's a cry to Hashem, not from H like you you learn in Tanakh and everything, whenever things happen, it's a cry from Hashem saying you need to repent and do Shuva. And this was maybe it's a cry to Hashem that look, look what you're doing. Like we're gonna all now come together and you need to bring Mashiach now. So like reframing it that way was a little different. Not that it's the reason that he died, but like what do you do with this? Which actually has shaped a lot with what we've done with the loss and everything.

Julie Pernikoff: So tell us a little bit about that. what what it spurred for you guys.

Ruthie: So I can't speak for Tani for what why he does it, but why I do it, I needed something to come out of it. His life can't be meaningless. He was only here with us for two years. and he made a huge impact on our lives and I wanted that to be shown to everybody else. So just raising a a lot of people say, you know, we do things like like in his name, Li Ula Nishmas, and for and I understood that if somebody loses a parent because that person was old enough to make to have a ve a varim and to make mistakes and I mean not mistakes but to have sins and to need someone to do repentance for them. But not a two year old, not a two and a half year old who was nothing but pure and amazing. And so doing things like in his name to continue that good. it's a very hard sitting shiva for a two year old and thinking and s think you know, you sit Not just who he was, but who he could have been. So we had to do something to make it who he could have been. And one of the biggest things we did was we donated a safer Torah. We had we have with the help of the community. and that was a big thing because it feels like, and people have said this to us who have read from the Torah, who have done this stuff, like he's there. He's inertial. He's every time somebody reads from his Torah, he's there with us. and on Simples Torah, when they, you know. They they hold his Torah up like it feels like everyone's there. And they sing Hamalach and it's just I'm a mess then, but it's

Julie Pernikoff: my god.

Ruthie: it's like the closest we feel to him. So so doing things like that, which people continue to do things in his name. you know, we raise money for actually for Zaka, which I'll explain why we do that later. But and then we decide we do a tournament every year. because he loved he loved throwing things and he loved to watch Tawny play baseball, so we do a baseball tournament. because we can't just be sad, you know, we wanna show who he was and everything.

Julie Pernikoff: Can you tell us a little bit about who he was?

Ruthie: He he knew how to make you smile. I mean, he was not he didn't have a lot of words. but he knew what would make us smile. He would throw things just to make us laugh. He the funniest he would my mother in law was here folding laundry and he just kept h taking it and hiding it. And just like every time she turned around he would just take it and hide it in the in the cabinet 'cause he just thought it was so funny and he knew it was gonna make me laugh and He and Akiva just were really the best friends. but he also knew what would bother Akiva. And so like in school, he wouldn't say hi to Akiva. He would just sit he would wave and then run the other way. he was very mischievous and we never disciplined him because it was just too funny. Like everything he did was just hysterical. And I f I felt like he was a lot older than he actually was.

Julie Pernikoff: He was like wise Like he just knew.

Ruthie: Yeah, he knew. I mean, he did a lot of things that were not so smart, like jumping off of things, getting in the middle of rough housing. And but he really just we have so many pictures of just a very infectious smile.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Tell us more. It's so nice to hear. If you have like any stories that you remember,

Ruthie: I feel like there's just so many there's it's also could because I can be honest about it. I've blocked some things out right now because it's because it's a zero tight and just too hard to remember. but but I I s see him in his brothers and like anytime they do something crazy. I mean, he I have videos of him, like it's late at night and he's just not going to sleep. He's standing on toys throwing things because he thinks 'cause he just doesn't feel like it. And he just thinks it's funny and like he was climbing out of his crib when he was young 'cause he just didn't want to be in his crib. He wanted to be running around and with a kiva and they used to knock on the wall next to each other. they could not share a room 'cause they would not go to sleep, but like they would knock on the wall to each other.

Julie Pernikoff: my god, that's so cute.

Ruthie: Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: And for anyone that hasn't I mean, we'll attach a picture but just describe, you know, what he looked like for everybody.

Ruthie: he had blonde hair, which is funny 'cause my kids have blonde hair. and Tani and I both have dark hair. he his hair was like a little crazy 'cause it was we do up share, so it was like two and a half, so his hair got a little crazy, but not too crazy. And really just his smile was just huge. Like it just took up his face.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. There's you your your house is filled with pictures. You are really like you mentioned earlier, like you you take a lot of pictures, you like to make photo books, There's one picture that always stands out to me. I think you'll probably know which one it is, the with the blue. I think frosting.

Ruthie: Yes. We for his first birthday we decided for some reason to do blue frosting. And because of who he is and because of what Kima is, it got all over his face. Like everywhere. And you just see how happy he is with the blue frosting all over it.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Ruthie: I think I was still getting things out like a year after like

Julie Pernikoff: my gosh.

Ruthie: in the high chair I tried to take it apart 'cause it was just everywhere.

Julie Pernikoff: my gosh.

Ruthie: And we s yeah, he he loved the blue frosting and being covered in it. He loved messes. He loved digging. There's we moved into the into our house when he was a year and when he was two, when he had not two yet. And he was just go into the backyard and dig. Like everywhere. He would just there would be mud everywhere. He and Akiva would get into so many messes and they loved it. And I loved it. Tani hates it, but I loved it.

Julie Pernikoff: Tani doesn't like the mess.

Ruthie: He hates messes, yeah. But I love the messes and they definitely do.

Julie Pernikoff: So so first of all, you were in this house. By the time he passed away, you had been living in your house.

Ruthie: Yeah, we moved into this house in March and then he died in August.

Julie Pernikoff: Okay, so he was there for a few months. Okay. How old

Ruthie: Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: was he when he passed away?

Ruthie: Two years and four months.

Julie Pernikoff: Now Akiva is how much older than him?

Ruthie: he was three years older.

Julie Pernikoff: Okay. And so they really were close. They were close in age and they were digging holes together. talk to us about Akiva.

Ruthie: It's really hard. he was five, so he understood, but didn't like fully understand, I think, everything. he understood that I mean, unfortunately, Tani's father passed away a year before, so so Akiva understood death and he understood that people die and don't come back. but he went through a lot the year after. a lot of anxiety, a lot of anger. And he was just worried he was gonna die because most kids know they'll get sick, they'll get hurt, they get better. I mean most parents think that every most people think that. He knows that the worst could happen. and that it did happen. And we went to therapy and it was actually amazing and we learned so much that helped me also and it was basically not Hide your feelings and not because if like I at first I thought that I should just not show him how I'm feeling. But then that first Shabbos, before Ezra was even buried, I was just in my room sleeping the whole day. And Akiva apparently was destroying the house. And so I came downstairs and it's So funny what you'll do for your kids. I said to him, I'm like, Do you want to go to Parake in the Park? Like, I didn't want to talk to anybody. I didn't want to see anybody. But Perric in the Park is like a big gathering every shop is of the community. And they have popsicles. And but I would have taken him because that's he needed to, but thankfully he didn't want to go, so I didn't have to face anybody. But

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Ruthie: but then I I was told by the therapy by the he's a child psychologist actually, I don't know what he is, but he by a chemist therapist. to show him my emotions because Akiva needs to see that you can have these big emotions and still be okay, that you can survive. And that's something I carry still. And I've actually have told that to other people as well who have either gone through this or again, unfortunately we know somebody else whose son passed away and I reached out to them and they're like, Well how do you talk to your kids? I'm like, actually the one thing this is what you should you need to show your emotions because it scares them. and Even now it's still it's hard. Like I never know when I should bring up Ezra or when I shouldn't. Like Ezra's always brought up but like specific about specific things because I don't know where Akiva is in that mindset. Like he brings it up also. and he brings up a lot of things that happened. But it's like like a day like today when, you know, we were all in moods and we all knew why. But like, do I remind him that but your brother died four years ago today. Like it's it's hard. And and you and I he doesn't like attention either. So, you know, things were upsetting him. Like what he doesn't like when people talk about it or because he doesn't want to talk about it. So, you know, we had to work through that as well and talk to the school about how how to deal with it. 'Cause the school also did it. Like nobody knew how to navigate this. So we've learned a lot through navigating it and One of the biggest things I found was that so there was a few months where it w he was now again an only child because I was pregnant and Ezra died. And he really lost himself. He just he really likes to take care of people and he loved to take care of Ezra and he loved to do everything for Ezra and have that sense of purpose and he lost that sense of purpose and he lost his smile for it was a few years until Ellie was old enough to like start being mischievous also and being and you could see that smile come back. I don't think he's I mean, I hope maybe he's the same as before. I mean, I don't think he is the same as before, but it was very hard watching that, watching him lose himself and, you know, lose a lot about himself, about how sure he he was of himself, how you know, now even now things like like situations could happen and then he'll s viral back because he's, you know, worried that he's gonna die or someone he knows is gonna die, because he knows that it can happen. And again, we were told just address it, just say, yes, that can happen. That's not happening now. And so that's also something that helped with me because it's, you know, I anytime one of my kids gets sick, now I worry is this how it's gonna end. But it's well, that's not happening right now. So just, you know, sit with it and he'll be okay or yeah. But he's I think he's okay now. I it was hard also watching him I'm gonna this in quotation marks, move on faster than the rest of us. because to me that felt like he was getting farther away from Ezra and farther away from that connection. But I was reminded that he was only five, so like his lifetime was a lot shorter, you know. So him going through it is like what might take me a year would only take him half a year because it's like different time zone timelines. and I don't think I mean I know he will never forget Ezra. He brings him up all the time. He talks to his brothers about him. it's a little bit different and that hurts a lot. that it's not the same as, remember when Ezra did this, remember Ezra did that. Now it's more looking at pictures and he, you know, says to his brothers, look, it's Ezra. And so it it's hard because it's it's hard for me to watch. I d I don't want him to hold on to the pain. I don't want him to hold on to this. And there's a lot of things I don't say to him, like when he's comparing himself to his three year old brother, like, well, why aren't the punishments the same? And it's like, because really there should have been a six year old here who you would have had the same punishment as, or you would have had somebody who you're so close to. it it's very hard for me not to say to him, you know, when he's bored all the time or when he says this. I'm like, Well, I'm sorry that person that you're supposed to play with all the time died, that your best friend died, that, you know, you have to now look outside our family for someone to play with. And I know a lot of families are like that, you know, where their kids are not so close in age where they have, you know, different genders, but like that's not how I grew up. I grew up very close to my siblings. My sister's my best friend. And so it's very hard for me that his best friend died and that now the closest to him is six years younger. And You know, s those are times when I'm like I don't know if I'm projecting my own feelings on him, so I have to be very careful not not to say that stuff to him.

Julie Pernikoff: And how do you communicate and interact that parenting with Tani? Because obviously you're you're going through those moments and trying to figure out what to say, but he also has to figure out what to say in his moments. How do you guys communicate about it? Are you on the same page about it? How how does that work?

Ruthie: we're more on the same page now than we were in the beginning. but listening to what the therapist had to say helped. But we were always on the same page of certain things of not not saying we would never say to him, Well, too bad because your brother's dead, or too bad, you know, you can't act like this because your next brother's only this. Like we we we know that that would not help and that that would set him back. We know that breaking things up would also make it worse. And we've I think from the beginning, both of us have let him lead the way. But also sometimes Akiva talks to me more about things than Tani. Like there was a good amount of time where I said I'm done doing bedtime because every time I did bedtime, we got into a really deep conversation and we were just done like talking about Mashiach and why people die and this. I'm like, you need to go to sleep already. So just we're done. I'm done doing bedtime. but I think we've been on the same page, but also, and this is just crazy that we're in this day and age, but like we text a lot about things, so like he can't see it. Now he's reading, so it's kind of harder to do that. But it's easier, like if if you get a sense of like what his mood is or what is happening, you know, it's like, hey, don't discuss this because this is how you know, this is happening. Or but also bringing him in and having him be helpful. So tonight there's actually a sheer going on at Shoal and Ezra's memory. So Tani took a Kiva to go help set up. and didn't hide from him what it was about. And then having him be a big part of the tournament that we do and having him help help plan it and make a lot of decisions so that giving him that sense of responsibility also helps him do stuff for, you know, for Ezra.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. I don't think that I've ever thought about it from that angle. the Akiva piece. Just that like you and Tani have each other and Akiva and Ezra had each other. And that's just a different way of looking at it that I didn't think about before.

Ruthie: And it's very hard. Ellie and Noam are getting very close. I mean, they're only they're less than two years apart. And just seeing that is just making me feel so sad for Akiva. Akiva's not said anything. Akiva has not mentioned or even he might not even feel this way. But seeing it from my perspective, that's how I feel. And even like in the beginning he used to spend a lot of time I mean, he still does actually at our neighbor's house. And I used to it used to make me really sad that he would spend all that time there because that's not how I envisioned Our lives. He should have been here the whole time. He should have not wanted to leave because he had someone, a built in kid to play with. That's not what happened. That changed. That's not what happened. And so I had to change my way of thinking and and not, you know, and understand that okay, it makes sense. He wants to go over to his friend's house where he can actually play with somebody and not a baby who's, you know, can't do anything.

Julie Pernikoff: So talking about change, because you said, you have to like change your perspective a little bit to adapt and shift but obviously never forget and how do you do it all? Like I can't I can't even put the words out I don't how

Ruthie: Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: do you do it?

Ruthie: It's hard. It is hard. There are we don't take family pictures. I mean, we take family pictures, but like it's very hard when I see other people taking family pictures because it's like you you see the whole family and we will never have that. So it's how do we incorporate Ezra into that? So with our Purham costumes it's easier to do. like this past year we were football, so I put his name on a football. And so like that's our family picture and it's People were saying, that, you that's so nice, whatever. It's so heartbreaking and it's so sad that we don't we can never have those family pictures. I to me it I see him in each of the boys. I think that's why I only have boys, because I really think that each boy somebody actually once told me, and this I thought was really beautiful, that all the Nishamas are together. So Ezra has met. Ezra was with his brothers before they were sent to me. and this goes for anybody who's lost anyone, you know, so it helps like he's he's met them all. But I think that Ezra has sent a piece of him down with each one. Like I see it in I see him in everybody and that the fact that all the boys are the same helps keep him here. And when I can, I I can look at back at videos of Ezra and pictures of him. Sometimes it's too hard to do that, but there are times, you know, I can do that. I could say, this is now what Ellie does, or this is what Noam does. something that reminded me that something that was really hard was when Ellie got older than Ezra because how is his younger brother older? And when he was around that age again, it was anxiety that he's gonna die also that maybe only Akiva's the only one who isn't going to, and just having his brother surpass his age and now do things like we can as I mentioned in the beginning, you know, I say like I have five boys, but like I'm not raising five boys and it's very hard because it's like, for example, potty training. People will say, like, how'd you potty train your kids? I'm like, Well I've only done two and it's very hard to think that way when like other peop other my other friends who have kids the same ages, well, they've already potty trained three. And it's makes it it's hard. It's hard to sometimes it's it's very hard to think of myself as someone who you know, people will say, you like your mother a five and I'm like, but I'm not. But I am. It's very hard.

Julie Pernikoff: how do you handle those moments of like you're saying sometimes you can look at your phone and look at pictures and videos and sometimes you can't? The moments that you can't walk us through that.

Ruthie: So those are times when I know that I have to be there for my kids and for my family. I have noticed that in the summer or during other times when when nobody is home and it's just me, those are days when sometimes that's the hardest. And because I have nothing else to focus on. again, so it's not it's not throughout the year, but it's like certain times like during Like tomorrow Tani will be home for his uret site. I mean, I remember he did this last year without even telling me that he was gonna stay home, but you know what, that is what I needed because if a if I was home by myself, it's just you can get sucked into that hole of just going through videos of looking through things. again, the more kids I have, the less time I have to do that, which ends up being better because I have to pull myself out of that hole. I I actually recently found I was trying to delete things from my eye my iPad and I found pictures that Tani had taken of Ezra in the hospital when he was dying and I had never seen those pictures and I like I really went deep but then I think one of the kids needed me or like somebody woke up and that snaps you out of it and you just you can't you really can't be in that hole because I saw how scared Akiva got when I was in that hole right after and I I can't go back to that way. So that's how I do it. That's the only way I do it is because I know that my kids need me.

Julie Pernikoff: When do you mean a Akiva got scared when you were in that hole?

Ruthie: Like he started acting out, he started like really he started breaking things in our house, like destroying the house. Yeah. Yeah. And it was

Julie Pernikoff: That's when he was destroying the house and you were upstairs. Okay.

Ruthie: a few times during that first year that that happened that because it was hard I mean, it's hard not to fall into that hole all the time. And It also I I find it's n not always helpful to be in that hole. that dark hole because it's just how can you just like you kind of have trouble breathing because it's like, how could this be happening? How is this my life? How is he not here? You know, you I kinda start to hyperventilate and then I just I can't I can't do it. I can't live that way.

Julie Pernikoff: What kind of support have you gotten for yourself that helps you function?

Ruthie: So I have a therapist that I've seen, who's helped me a lot. one of my biggest support is Tawny and he he doesn't talk about emotions, but one of the things he's done and and actually separate from him, Dr. Norman Blumenthal from Ohel, so he he is a trauma specialist and he had told us actually that he was just thrust into this job. not based on his own like personal experience. He's been doing this for over 30 years. He came during Shiva and they kind of closed Shiva down and on and talked to us. And then actually he then talked to the whole community on a Zoom later to help to tell them how to help us and help themselves because it was a huge trauma. and he told us that a lot of the things he said made a lot of sense and has helped, you know, that Tanya and I both will have different paths to our grieving. As I had mentioned, he was in the hospital with Ezra. So he's gone through the trauma. He has PTSD from it, which now I'm realizing some things that he says that I've realized, he ha he actually has PTSD from being in that room when I wasn't there. And how that relates to our grief and how our responses are different. And having that space has helped a lot, both with our parenting and with each other, because he has gone very much into Judaism, very much into it. And before he would have made jokes to me where I you know, you really need to dobb in or you really need to to do this. And now it's like, okay, so don't do it. You know, don't you don't have to go to show. I get it. You don't have to do that. And I support him with him wanting needing to go to Minion. Like I I understand. It makes no sense to me whatsoever, but to him it's very important to go to Minion every day. So that's fine. I will do whatever I can to help so he can go to Minion. So he can go to learning. So he can, you know, do these things. and he does the same for me. You know, if there's something I need to say that I I I can't even think of what I need to do. Like I I actually I I mean, I used to work out and box because that helped get my anger out. so like doing that and he would make sure I was able to do that or but it's really been the whole the Judaism aspect of it. Because also we've we're on the same page when it comes to our kids and how they need to make their own decisions. So we need to present them with like that they have to go Dobbin. They have to, you know, do all this stuff because and a and not be angry at Hashem. I mean they can be if they want to, but we're not projecting our feelings onto them. Because It doesn't matter how I'm feeling about it. Also because this helps me a lot actually is that I'm female and they're male. So

Julie Pernikoff: Nice. Yeah, yeah.

Ruthie: my responsibilities are very different from theirs. So I you know, so the feelings are a different part of it, but like what you actually have to do. So they see like I do the things that I am supposed to do. Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Talk to us if you can, about your marriage. I mean, some of the things that you said just now already are like so profound and so special. But I guess if you could give us a few more words to help us understand.

Ruthie: I think looking back, we were like prepped for this. I am a very outspoken person. Like I don't I tell Tani what I need. And whether he listens or not is different. like you know, this like I can't and that has helped is me being vocal about what I need, but also giving him space and understanding that sometimes I forget that he not that I forget, but it's like I should be the only one who's mad and who's angry and who's in a bad mood because I kind of forget that he also lost a son. So getting out of myself has helped with that. But then also saying to him, like, okay, this is gonna be a rough time. We're we're gonna be annoyed now. So just let's just let some things go. but that took I mean, that did take a few years. Like I would get really annoyed the first few years at things. But for example, today, like there were things he was doing that was bothering me, there were things I was doing that was bothering him, and it like, you know what? the your sights today, we're just gonna let it go, let things go. Or I I mean I said to myself more, just let some things go. But then I think knowing what the other person needs has been helpful.

Julie Pernikoff: And how does he let you know what he needs?

Ruthie: Yeah, he doesn't, which makes

Julie Pernikoff: Ha ha

Ruthie: it very hard. Males don't tend to talk about their feelings. Maybe some do, but the ones in

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. Yeah.

Ruthie: my life don't. so I think me realizing I mean by his actions more. You know, the insistence on going to Minion. Like I understand that's what he needs. I also like I see like working out But I knew this from before also that he likes to work out. That helps him mentally, that helps him feel good. So doing that. and yeah, letting him do what he wants, I guess, is more like even simple things with both of us, like spending money, not on huge things, but like I'm a very crafty person where I like to think I am. So like if if I just want to go to Hobby Lobby, he's okay with that. And that's fine. And if he just wants to order random stuff on Amazon, which really would really bother me because I don't like all the clutter, like I get it. It's just he sees the deal, he just wants to do it. It's fine. So I guess learning that balance of, you know, you can't control the other person and just they need to have that space. but also he found a rabbi here that he I don't know if he's ever spoken to him, like emotionally, but like it's funny, we're in a texting group with them, so I speak for him, and I'm like. Okay, you need to go deal with Toddy right now because he's in this mood. So I think pointing things out like that has helped. But again it took years. Like it took a few years after. there was there was a lot of sadness. I mean there still is sadness, but it's different. Yeah, he was he's been really great. I don't know if I've been great to him, but he's been really great. Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Tani.

Ruthie: Yeah, yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: That's that's really amazing. When I asked you about support, I definitely was thinking, like, your therapist? Like, you said Tani, and that is so beautiful.

Ruthie: Right. Well, 'cause also we had another meeting with Dr. Blumenthal because there was I don't I honestly don't remember why. I don't remember what prompted it. I remember feeling really annoyed, I think, with Tawny about something. And we spoke to him and that's when I think he told us that we're gonna have different paths and it's gonna be and like just based on who Tani and I are, like having that out there has helped. Having somebody else say it has helped a lot because somebody who has seen it, someone who's, you know, seen things. we also like use a lot of dark humor, which sometimes is just how you have to get through it. And but understanding also when like that's appropriate and when it's not appropriate, when you just can't deal with it and when you can.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And obviously, like Tani's not here to talk about his own path. So I don't wanna like well, You can decide what you want to do or not.

Ruthie: I could talk about his path.

Julie Pernikoff: I feel like I saw that he got really into Judaism I don't even know what was different before versus after, but like it was just apparent.

Ruthie: Right? It doesn't feel like it was a lot different, but like it is. Like he doesn't miss Minion now because that's important to him and You know, others have said, Well, it's fine, just miss the minion or like they'll say, like, you know, you you have a newborn, you could just miss Minion or I'm so nice to let him go. And I'm like, No, I get it. He needs that. There's other things I won't let him do. Like, you know, he has to be home at a certain time to help me with the kids. But like I get it. That's what he needs and seeing what he needs has helped me because it's helped our marriage in that sense.

Julie Pernikoff: Why?

Ruthie: Because him being happy, or I guess not happy 'cause are we happy? I don't know. But him being doing what he needs to do for his own mental health and for his himself helps him be a better husband. So that helps me.

Julie Pernikoff: it almost gives you permission in a way to also do what you need to do. Like

Ruthie: Exactly.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. has he ever spoken about the things that he saw that day? have you guys talked

Ruthie: he is

Julie Pernikoff: about it? Has he said?

Ruthie: We've talked about it. I can't think that way because that means that then it then I go into a spiral of that means that was my fault that I brought him to the Bahamas, that all of that. I need to just blame Hashem. he thinks that the he did that Ezra did not get great care there. I can't really talk to him about it because I don't wanna hear it. I don't wanna hear that things didn't go as they should have gone because that means that somebody made a mistake which I don't think is what happened.

Julie Pernikoff: That's really hard. How does your family handle it? Like that dynamic, that piece there, because that could easily turn into like this big discussion or this looming gray cloud. Is it one already? And how do you guys handle that?

Ruthie: I don't know. We don't really discuss it. My mom and I have looked like have discussed that it was nobody's fault. So that's also why I can't help Tani with that part because I can't I can't go back and think I can't rethink this whole thing again. Like it happened. He said that's it. so I don't know if he's talking to anybody about it. I don't know if he's spoken to anyone. I have no idea. Or he's just let it go. I don't know.

Julie Pernikoff: And that's kind of also where like everyone can have different paths, it sounds like. Like based on what Dr. Blumenthal said.

Ruthie: Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Wow. how are you doing in this conversation?

Ruthie: It's been therapeutic. it I like talking I don't like talking about it, but I like people hearing what I have to say because it helps again bring them to my level, bring them to understanding and maybe it'll help other people as well. unfortunately this is the world we live in. Kids die and people don't know what to do. And I think that's the biggest mistake is not asking what to do. I would rather people listen to this, listen to other podcasts, l ask me questions than like my sister does, but again, she's it's different, but she'll say it or my mom does like so and so lost their kid. Like, should I say this or should I not say this? And my answer is always like it's better to reach out and to say something than not to talk about it.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm, mm-hmm.

Ruthie: because you're not gonna ever bring the grief up. I'm always grieving. So yeah, sometimes it's harder it's actually some days it's harder to look at the good parts of him and to remember the good. I always know the bad. The bad is with me always. But talking about him sometimes yes, it brings a smile to my face and makes me feel good, but like sometimes those days are hard.

Julie Pernikoff: remembering the good is sometimes harder.

Ruthie: Like yes. Like we have the picture frame and somet I haven't done this lately 'cause I've just left the room but like I've had to shut it off because it's just too hard to to look at him smiling like that. So n you never have to worry about asking or you know, bringing it up. I think a lot of people assume you shouldn't. And it ends up being awkward situations. we had people staying here and I heard them say to Tani, how many boys how many kids do you have? And he said, I don't remember, I think he said I mean, it was before three weeks ago. So he said, We have three and I And then after he said he realized, but they're gonna see that on our wall we have all four boys. So like that just makes it awkward. And so then I d we were talking about it and how like really it should have been whoever set us up set told the people like the welcoming committee to s you know come stay here should have said to them, By the way, they lost a child. Like I know you're not supposed to speak Lash and Hara. I would want people to speak Lash and Hara about us. I want people to know to make it less awkward because it puts us also in that awkward situation of like, do you know what happened? Do you not know what happened? Like if we mention it, is it awkward? And we also

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm.

Ruthie: don't want to make the other person feel awkward. You know, to then we've seen that also where like then they feel so bad about bringing something up. And it's like you should never feel bad about especially if you didn't know. Or if you bring it up like we've heard you know, if you bring it up by accident or something, or you know, we don't want people to walk around on eggshells like around us.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Ruthie: so yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: It's very nice that you're trying to consider other people's feelings in these moments. Like you don't want them to feel bad. That's very nice.

Ruthie: Like there are times Todd and I actually sometimes love saying this. Like we'll be somewhere and somebody will accidentally call Ellie Ezra or like somebody will say Ezra's name and then we just look at each other and think it's really funny. First of all, if anybody ever calls my kids Ezra, it actually makes me feel good because you know, like you always mess up kids' names and so to still be able to, you know, mess up his name with theirs. But then there are times like people will mention the Bahamas and like totally not think and then realize afterwards and we're like, that's so awkward. Like that's when we make jokes of like, Well you wanna go there, have fun? Okay, but you might not come back with a kid. Like

Julie Pernikoff: my God. That's where the dark humor comes in.

Ruthie: Yes, exactly.

Julie Pernikoff: Wow.

Ruthie: Yeah, so that's yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. And it's I mean, it sounds like I I was gonna ask you you know, a little bit about milestones of the year, holidays, Shabbos. what would you say it's like with the passing of each holiday season?

Ruthie: So milestones are much harder. starting of school year. There are times when I stay away from social media because it's just too hard to see other people's families. Or actually sometimes that's when I post my things because I'm like, I just can't deal with this. And I not just I can't deal with it, I just want I just want to bring people to my level. but then like I'll write something and somebody will be I'm so sorry I shouldn't have posted that. I'm like, no no, please don't say that to me because you're allowed to post your family. I get like that's not what it was. So like beginning of school year is very hard. End of school year, seeing, you know, pictures of kids like camp, like I know who'd be where what camp he would be in, who'd be his age, like that's hard. The Hagim have gotten They're still hard, but they've gotten different. you know, Rosh Hashanah is is hard for a different reason just because of Davening and and asking for things and Davening for the year, because I can't do that anymore, so that's harder. Simplas Torah has gotten different. because it was never like he he was only two, so like to celebrate these holidays, like he didn't do as much, but like Simpos Torah now brings comfort because we stay We stay here in our show where they they have the big Kohanarim Talis that we help donate. You know, it feels like he's part of the show with the Torah and with with all of that. one of the hardest holidays is Pesach because he was born right after Pesach, so that's hard. And then the his last Pesach, he had I had COVID and then Akiva had COVID, and we were at my parents' house and we were like enclosed in one room. So like to be in that in the living room again sometimes is very hard. Like on, you know, brings back a lot of memories. so holidays are and Shabbos was very hard in the beginning. but it's gotten a lot better. And I have to say like I'm so thankful for our friends and people who were not afraid to bring their kids over because that's exactly what Akewa needed, you know, from the beginning. Kiva was having friends come over and like we needed the loudhouse. We needed not to just be sitting here quietly. So Shabbos has I again, like it's just pivoted a little and it's changed. Like just reminded me of a really funny story about Shabbos. So it was actually the the last Shabbos that he was alive. I was sitting on the couch with Akiva and I told Akiva and Ezra to go set the table. And all of a sudden I look and Ezra just takes the whole tablecloth and is pulling it towards me with all the stuff Akiva had just set. Just pulled it towards me because he just thought it would be funny. Like pulled everything off the table. so like remembering that, you know, it's hard, but Shabbos at the beginning was very hard because it's very hard to all of my normal outlets I couldn't do on Shabbos, like scrolling mindlessly on my phone, not on social media, on like whatever I could find, you know, like Pinterest, anything. Listening to music, listening to books, like I couldn't do that in the beginning. I mean I couldn't do that not in the beginning, I can't do that still. But like that got very hard. So so finding other things to do, I guess made it easier.

Julie Pernikoff: What what other coping mechanisms were you able to use on Chavez? 'Cause that is really hard.

Ruthie: puzzles I got really into. because I realized like it I don't have to focus on other things. I can just do the puzzle. Like I couldn't read books 'cause I just it was too much. 'cause I couldn't focus on the books. So doing puzzles, and then having Ellie who and then I had to take care of a baby now, so that was very helpful.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. What's it what's it been like since having Ya ear.

Ruthie: it's been it's good. it's hard. because you know, it's hard having a kid who doesn't know his older brother, another one who doesn't know his elder older brother. it's hard taking pictures of all of them and saying knowing that one is missing. But also I've just been it I've been busy with them. So it's also helping take away from the end of the summer, which is always a hard time. Like I was thinking about it recently, how everybody people go away at the end of the summer. We haven't done that since well, we did we went to Israel one time, but like I can't go away at the end of the summer anymore. So being busy with everybody is what's helpful. so it's yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Have you guys taken any vacations together? I guess you said you went to Israel. Have you taken any vacations

Ruthie: Yeah, I I won't go. It makes it hard. Tawny wants to go to Hawaii or to like a tropical place. I won't I won't go anywhere right now. the only place

Julie Pernikoff: With the kids.

Ruthie: No, just in general. Yeah, he wants to go with anybody. I won't. It's too hard for me to go.

Julie Pernikoff: What part of it is hard?

Ruthie: just going to a tropical place in general. Just thinking, you know, doing that. also right now I really just feel If we have any time to go on vacation, we need to go to Israel. We need to be with Ezra. We need to not leave him there. so that is what we've done. I mean, we've taken like local trips within the United States, but not not tropical.

Julie Pernikoff: I'm curious because you said also like people, brought over their kids right away. How have friends played a role in your grieving and in your healing?

Ruthie: a huge role. especially the community because they have kept him alive within the community. without us asking to do things. There was recently our neighbors two of our neighbors did a lemonade stand to raise money for Ezra's memory. I get texts like around this time or just in general from from friends who you know, like thinking of you but then say things like I remember as you're doing this or like reminding me of stories. Also their kids saying things and their kids who are like what was saying before about my friend who was also pregnant at same time, like her son still calling him his best friend when like my rational brain knows, you know, he's doesn't really remember him that well because they were only two but the fact that he still thinks of that, like that means a lot. so telling me things like that it it did, you know, it it took some time for some people to say, like, I hope it's okay. That they'll text me, I hope it's okay to say this. And so then I'll respond back, it's always okay to tell me stories about Ezra, tell me things that you remember about him. just the whole community has really been supportive and you know, knows that we need him here in our lives. And in the community and this is where he grew up, this is where he lives, this is the only place he's ever known. And he's we feel him here still. Not just in in the house, but when some you know, when we go out.

Julie Pernikoff: Did he ever go to like Park in the park?

Ruthie: he loved it. He loved it. Yeah. He loved going there. And he loved Tat Shabbat and that was hard taking. It was very interesting thinking about taking Ellie to all these places. It was very hard taking him because he was the one right after. But now it's been long enough I could take Noam to places I can put Noam in Edger's clothes and not break down. Ellie did not wear a lot of Ezra's clothes because it was too hard. but you know, now now I I could put the other kids in because I'm okay with it now.

Julie Pernikoff: I'm wondering now, like, now that I know a little bit more of the story do you know how your parents and Tani's mom because his father passed away a year before Ezra, right? So how the grandparents, like how they handled things, like emotionally, how they managed.

Ruthie: So I my fat I am like my father. he got angry. He's still angry. And he again there are things like he won't he used to dom from Domud a lot. He won't do that anymore. But he's still Dom, he still goes to Minion and everything. He's angry and my mom is more it's funny, my mom is more like Tani and more turned towards Hashem for comfort. I think same with Tani's mom also. I mean, it's really affected everybody. It my mom says, you know, she will be talking to her patients and it's again simple conversations of, how many grandkids do you have? And she says she has I just I honestly lost count, but I think it was nine before and then, you know, she she still includes him in it, but it still gets hard and, you know, it's hard. I I I haven't I don't know exactly what they're going through because I haven't been able to really ask.

Julie Pernikoff: You're also like you're the you're really the priority, but at the same time, it's interesting to think about the ripple effect

Ruthie: So we were trying to figure out where where we should donate money to because we wanted to raise money for something. one of the reasons we wanted to that was because actually the community raised money for us for a chassed fund that was incredibly helpful because we didn't have to think about things. You know, it helped it paid for like a cleaning person, you know, just things that we didn't even think that we would need help with that had helped. So then we were thinking, okay, we should do something like that. But like, but there's a lot of organizations already that do things like this. And so then we were trying to figure ones out. We did Hatsala af the the first year. And then after October 7th, I remembered about Zaka. And it's the work that they do, they ensure that first they do they do a lot of rescues, but unfortunately they deal a lot with bodies and people who've already died and making sure that they are buried respectfully, that that they're all taken care of. And that's a job that not many people know. And we understand that. we understood it from how Ezra was taken care of, not by Zaka, but by by Rabbi Blooming, by other people. And then again, how when he was moved to Israel, again, the same thing. Like there's a lot of pieces that went that actually we're not allowed to know, but a lot of pieces that went through. like how it all came together and y we just found that it's a very important organization to help support to support them because of both, you know, they they really they go in and they rescue, but then they rescue both the living and the dead.

Julie Pernikoff: With respect also.

Ruthie: Yeah, with respect and care and in the proper way. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of things that go into it that I think people don't realize, you know, when it comes to dealing with with the debt with, you know, the correct hellochic way and the most respectful way. Things that I don't even realize, but I know is important. So that's that's why we like to support them.

Julie Pernikoff: With Ezra, with with those types of things, like with respect for the body and like halacha, did you guys handle that or someone else stepped in?

Ruthie: The rabbis of this community stepped in. we found out later that the rabbis of the two shoals, which they're not competing shoals, they just happen to be two separate shoals, made decisions, dealt with a lot of things. they they called their rabbis in to to ask questions about Halephic things. I haven't asked 'cause I don't wanna know yet, but I'm sure they would tell me. You know what all of it. But yeah, we we were not a part of any of it. On purpose.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah.

Ruthie: Tani may have been a part of some things. But I was definitely not a part of anything. And I I didn't want to be.

Julie Pernikoff: So it sounds like sometimes you really wanna acknowledge things and really wanna face it. And other times like for the sake of functioning, can't

Ruthie: Yes.

Julie Pernikoff: or don't or won't.

Ruthie: Yeah, when we were picking out when we had to pick out the tombstone, I told Tani I'm not I'm not gonna be a part of it. Do whatever you want. I don't care. he ended up picking a really beautiful Pasuk that was actually said by Rabbi Donath at the funeral. it's from Sherhamalood, uhsayan I al Haharim, and it's Ezrima im Hashem Osha Mayambarat, so like ha Ezra's with Hashem. it's another it's a very hard anytime that Tehelim is said, I can't say it anymore. for two reasons. One because of that, but also because again, going back to my relationship with Hashem, it used to be very comforting when it was Hine Loya Nivalaisha and Shamir Israel and now I feel like okay, he's protecting Israel, but not in the way I want him to, so it's it's it's a hard it's it's interesting that it that Pussik was coming from that same To hell him, but but yeah, Tani did all of that because I said I'm not gonna be involved.

Julie Pernikoff: Wait, say the passag again for us and slowly if you can.

Ruthie: Help comes from Hashem, the maker of heaven and earth.

Julie Pernikoff: Ezri Mayim Hashem, Ose Shamaim Varets. My help comes from Hashem, the maker of heaven and earth. It's really powerful because it's it's his name.

Ruthie: Yeah. That was the same. Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: So if you feel like something's missing, if it comes to mind you just tell me. What does the future look like to you?

Ruthie: I thinking what's missing is like talking about how to raise kids with grief. and that's exactly what how the future is. It's it's that balance between Being there for for the kids and letting them be individuals and not be brought down by, I have a brother who died. but also keeping Ezra's memory alive and not letting him down. and that's that's the balance and that's what I think the future looks like. It's it's gonna be hard. It's gonna be very hard going through all these milestones of things happening and him not being here, but keeping him involved. And finding a way to continue to keep him here. sometimes it feels hard because he only lived for two year two and a half years. And there's just yeah, I don't know.

Julie Pernikoff: It feels hard because he was here for a short time, so it feels like it's hard to

Ruthie: not as many things to say about him. The feeling is different than than what I could actually say. He there's not as many stories it but it does feel like he was here for a really long time.

Julie Pernikoff: I was actually thinking that. I was gonna ask you like like can you tell us more about how you feel about him? 'Cause it's less about like all the things that he did. Cause he was

Ruthie: Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: just a little boy, but it's really like how he made you feel, like you're his mom.

Ruthie: Yeah. He just he really felt like like I was thinking now about how it's only been four years and it feels like he was here for a long longer than just two and a half years and that it has been longer than four years because he just yeah, it's it's harder it's hard to explain how those two and a half years felt so much longer and so short at the same time. I think it felt short Aside from the fact that it was only two and a half years, but based on the future and what he couldn't continue to do. But what he gave us was a lot. I mean, he he really gave us he taught us he taught us how to be patient, how how to how to let our kids be individuals and let them be themselves. And he taught Akiva how to be an amazing brother. I mean, we see a lot of what he learned from Ezra, not stuff we taught him, but what he learned from Ezra and And how yeah, he it's hard to explain everything that he's that he brought to us and what he taught us and it's hard to explain that feeling of how hard and how the light dimmed when he was gone because of everything that how bright our lives were.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. what are your hopes for the future?

Ruthie: So for for Kiva, I hope he continues to bring to feel Ezra. I think I've come to the point where I've realized like he can't always just think about him and he can't be the same sad that I am and he can't think about what would have been because that's too much. But I hope he keeps him within him and and talks about him and whether that's from memories or through the pictures, anything, just keeps him with him. and I hope that my other boys feel as though they know him. Feel as though they've really met him and that they that they got to know him. based on what we you know, I guess from us from what we've said or whether we can really believe that all the Nishamas were connected. And for me and Tani I hope that It's hard because I wanna say I hope that things get not easier, but some days it's very hard when I feel happy because I don't wanna I wanna just it's hard. It's hard to when I'm feeling more hopeful, when I can see the light. Some days it's much harder that I'm feeling that way because it feels like I'm losing Ezra more. Even though I I mean, I can never lose him. He's a part of me, he's a part of us. He changed who we are, so he will always be a part of us. So I guess what I hope for us is that we can be there for our ki for the other kids and never make them feel less than Ezra. You know, never make them feel like we can't give them as much attention as we can our grief.

Julie Pernikoff: that was that was a very special line. I kind of was hoping that you would be in some ways like here's how to get through something like this, because it's so unbearable to see that you had to go through something like this and that you're still going through it. and as much as like we're all with you at the same time, like i it's a very lonely experience

Ruthie: I would never I and it sometimes it annoys me when people are going through it also because I just want to be the only one to go through it. and I would never want anybody to go through it with me. I it's actually it's not helpful for me if people are sad all the time, also. You know, sometimes you need that distraction. And you need to see that the world moves on as hard as that is, as impossible as that is, that The world has to keep going.

Julie Pernikoff: I think it's wild to hear that because yeah, like, I don't know. I guess you only find these things out by having discussions that are so incredibly hard. But like, I think that there there is such a guilt of like how could how can we continue and like move forward with life when like I know that they're going through this,

Ruthie: Yeah. I think it's because of what you've said that we're going through it. We're the ones who are going through this. So I guess let us go through it and just be alongside us. So, you know, let us make comments what we want to. Let us make jokes. Let us but like don't shy away from it. Don't talk and pretend like you I mean some people do forget that Ezra would have been six. Some people don't. And some people say that to us, and it really means a lot when they say You know, it makes me sad seeing my son going to school next year when I know that your son should have been with him. so saying something like that is okay for us. But also don't shy away from it. Like if we're at a Shabbos table and someone's talking about their six year old. So yes to us, we were rolling our you know, rolling our eyes like, my god, I can't believe you're talking about this when we lost our six year old. But also be normal around us because sometimes that's just what we need.

Julie Pernikoff: Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, is is it to clarify, is it it is it okay though if people talk about their kids like at the same age, but at the same time

Ruthie: We find it very annoying, but a hundred percent okay. Because

Julie Pernikoff: Ha ha ha. 'Cause I'm like, wait, which is is it okay or is it not okay? Yeah.

Ruthie: It's right. It's very confusing. You know. That's why I say like it's it doesn't hurt to ever say anything, but like don't expect the response to be exactly, you know. Like, if I'm not contributing to the conversation, there's a reason why. And sometimes just let me. But also, but yeah, I mean we we've been at meals and we laved the meal. We're like, my god, I can't believe they they just were talking about this. We're like they know we this and that, but like We don't want anybody to not talk about things because of us. Like makes

Julie Pernikoff: Right, at the same time, like you want them to be normal.

Ruthie: Yeah, it makes it uncomfortable to not talk about it. But also like Yeah. The biggest thing

Julie Pernikoff: But also you're like annoyed with them.

Ruthie: Yeah. Like we could be annoyed with them, but also not talk about it. But the the biggest thing that bothers us is when people are afraid to bring him up. That's really because he was here. We we think about him every day. We know what he should have been doing now. We understand. And so don't ever be afraid to bring it up because it it helps bring him back.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. It sound it really sounds like through our conversation, a big theme is like keeping him alive, like keeping his memory alive, keeping his who he was present with us as we continue forward, that like he should just always he should be with us.

Ruthie: Yeah, and right now that is easier. You're s talking about the f thinking about the future. Anytime I see somebody say, it's been twenty five years since their son died, that actually scares me because right now he can still be the two and a half year old because I s still have little kids and because he's still the community still remembers him as that way. But what's gonna happen when it's been twenty five years and he's not the two and a half year old anymore. You know, he's Nobody is that age anymore. And it's been that long.

Julie Pernikoff: saying everybody else running around right now is a similar age. So it like you feel it. You feel it.

Ruthie: Yeah. Yeah, and I right, I feel it. And I see, you know, so when people say like if they're saying the same things now as they're gonna say in twenty five years, like, my son's getting married, your son should have also been getting married, like that's a hard thing to think about because he was only two and a half. So so s so seeing things like that for the future does scare me and it's I so I don't think it that far in the future because it's too hard.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. I think something that I've learned from you a lot tonight is like don't be afraid to just like do certain things that you need to do to get by and to function. And if it means blocking certain things out, then block those things out. Like you need to function. You have a bunch of boys running around at home that you have to take care of. Okay.

Ruthie: Yes. Yes. You cannot function with them, yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: Like you have to take care of them and like huge coloc of o to you that you do then put the phone down or put the thing down that you're like getting into a rabbit hole with and you're like, I gotta go take care of my kid. that's massive.

Ruthie: It's yeah, we talk about Ellie, who's my three year old, and how calm he was and happy he was in the beginning, and now how crazy he is. And he's like like exactly what we needed. He we needed a calm baby who we could just hold and keep close. And now we we need the kid who's starting all the trouble, who is like his brother, who, you know, really will do anything. And then now Noah's acting like that also, you know, no fear. Ezra had no fears. We s I see it now in the in Noam when he goes into the pool. Like we have this this like beach thing here in Fairlot, and he Noam will just crawl right in and go as far as he could and not care if he goes under the water. And Ezra was the same way. Yeah,

Julie Pernikoff: My god, that is so scary.

Ruthie: and Ezra was the same way. Like he just refused to wear floaties. Refuse you know, and so seeing like things like that and remembering those things, that helps me not. also not go through the rabbit hole or 'cause they they don't let you. They really don't let you. You know, like I take Ellie to the splash pad, which really was Ezra's thing to do, and Ellie's yelling at me something. So it's like you can't you can't focus on it. And so that's they they really they help help me get through everything.

Julie Pernikoff: Wow, wow, if anybody wants to reach out to you either, to share a few words or even come to you for consolation for their own things. Can people reach out? Okay.

Ruthie: Definitely. I'm always open to people reaching out. People should just understand and it's funny 'cause people have said this to me also, that you may reach out at a time when you don't know what's going on, but like it might be a hard time for me. So don't expect an answer right away. But but I've actually noticed also from my myself, like if aga I've mentioned some people who've lost who have also lost kids that like I know and I'll reach out to them right away because like your brain just shuts off and you're like, Okay, they need to know that there's support out there. But yes, definitely anyone can reach out to me. It it actually helps me when people reach out because I like to feel helpful. I like to think that something came from this, whatever that could be. So if that means me helping somebody else, then that's a small thing that came from what I've learned about myself, what I've learned about this whole experience.

Julie Pernikoff: based on what you're saying, I think that it would also be really beneficial, for people to keep in mind that they can reach out at certain maybe at like certain milestones. Like meaning when when you put out your sub stack, also we can put the link to that in the show notes. I think

Ruthie: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: that would be a great way. I'm sure there's messaging even there if people wanted to get in touch with you. Okay, that's great.

Ruthie: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: do you want people to reach out on the yard site or is that harder? Like you prefer his birthday or

Ruthie: It's not no, it's not harder. I ch just I think and I I don't I don't think I think this is more from my perspective, thinking that everybody needed a response right away. But you don't don't expect a response right away. I will read it, but that doesn't mean I can always respond or all I can do is just heart your message, but but reaching no, but any time. Like on the year site is fine also. Like

Julie Pernikoff: Mm-hmm.

Ruthie: I appreciated all the texts that I'm getting. I may not respond tonight, but I'll see it.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. I think you're too hard on yourself about the responding thing.

Ruthie: A hundred percent.

Julie Pernikoff: I hope it felt as, you know, good for you as it felt informative for me.

Ruthie: Hope it was informative because I would love to talk more about this to help people understand what to do, help people who are going through it because again something has to come from this. Something has to. So either it's you know my direct line to HM or it's me helping people. Like I need I need to do I need something. So that's also why I started my Substack hoping that maybe it'll help somebody, maybe you know, it'll be another resource for anybody who again is going through it or people who don't know. Like I'm as you can see from here, I'm very open about things. I I think that that's important and also that it's not the same for everybody, but this is how I feel, this is what I think. And I do think a lot of people share my same the same views of talking about things and talking about the person who's not there and especially letting the person lead. you know, making sure people know that they should mention the person who has died because you're never You never forget that person. You're never not thinking about

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. No matter like you were saying, the number of years, how many stories you have, like it's really so much more about How they made you feel and like what their essence was and continues to be like living on through stories and through feelings. I mean, when someone is so young, there's such a heavy, intense like love and fun and emotion and and mischief that it's, you know, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Ruthie: Yes. And finding the and finding the things like when Tani's father died, it was easy to find things to do in his memory because of who he was. You know, he he was really devoted to his shoal. He was really he leaned. He so Tani was able to to do things that would make his father proud. That for a two year old who,

Julie Pernikoff: Mm. Mm.

Ruthie: you know, he didn't love giving Tedaka. He didn't love daffodin, like he was two. So trying to find something for myself from this tragedy to to just like yeah, to make it meaningful really for me, to make his life continue to be meaningful.

Julie Pernikoff: Yeah. I didn't even think about it like, it has to be that he did certain things or that his life was led in a certain way that then we'll do things to remember him by based on that. I actually just think like you were his mommy and like we can remember just because of like the love that was there. I really, really mean that. Like I really just mean he was a yummy boy, and like he was just a delight. And for that reason alone, like he was yours, he was ours that like we can remember and do mitzvos in honor of him. regardless of if he went on to you know, he didn't have the chance to do Dafyomi or something that then we'll do Dafiomi for him.

Ruthie: Yeah.

Julie Pernikoff: we can do we can do blue frosting for him. That's for sure. That's for sure.

Ruthie: Always. Anyway.

Julie Pernikoff: as much as like I've even learned, I still like it's still even hard to know what the right thing is to say or not say. So I just want you to know that like There is a lot of love for you and there is a lot of love for for you guys and for your family and it's and people are definitely gonna stumble all the time still. It's

Ruthie: And that's okay.

Julie Pernikoff: it's hard, yeah.

Ruthie: It's okay to stumble. It's okay not to know. It's we're go we're going through this for the first time. We don't know. And I think that's okay.

Julie Pernikoff: Ruthie, thank you for being here. Thank you for

Ruthie: Thank you.

Julie Pernikoff: this. His Nishama should have an aliyah and your family should have comfort. And we should all continue to have him in mind and his memory should live on and he should live on with us.

Ruthie: Yes, thank you.

Julie Pernikoff: Thank you.